From the social constructionist perspective, every social problem is the result of a social cause and society can be held accountable for every difficulty. They imaginatively produce politically-motivated explanations to problems that are far deeper and more complicated than they could possibly realise. When interpretation guides your understanding, that makes it possible for every female problem to be the result of male tyranny, the existence of which has been proven by the problems which must have been caused by male tyranny because, well who knows really, interpretations aren't always sensible.

Hope for better days... and try not to make the problem worse by blaming the wrong people.

The now establishment nature of International Women's Day suggests, at least to me, that it serves the ends of the powerful. — Txastopher

I have no idea what "the ends of the powerful" would refer to, even. Who are supposed to be "the powerful"?

When the state sanctions the feminist critique of men, — Txastopher

It's simply a "women's day." It's not a critique.

While the main enemy of women is men" — Txastopher

Oy vey.

Male tragic.

Divide and rule is definitely a thing, and that's what astrology is all about. Therefore do not allow folks that have a different special day to you to become your enemy. Buy them a present on their day, and hope for a present on your day.

↪Txastopher Male tragic — Banno

If you're suggesting that I don't consider that women have a collective grievance, then you're wrong.

Nevertheless, I question the relative of importance of male discrimination against women in the developed world when compared to other issues. For this reason, I suggest that since pitting men and women against each other may have a political benefit for particular groups, then it is not unreasonable to suggest that these groups would promote such a state of affairs. International Women's Day being but one way of furthering this objective.

Its one thing to realize the potential of identity politics to be coopted by institutionnal powers so as to pit it against other progressive forces. Its another to advance some half-hidden slippery-slope fallacy without providing any indication whatsoever that such cooption is taking place.

And to note, this criticism of potential opposition between progressive forces and identity-based politics is at its very weakest when it is leveled against feminism, because feminism is the identity-based politic that reaches the largest population group. Any improvement on women's conditions is a potential improvement of about half the population. Only full-on class warfare manages to get better reach.

I question the relative of importance of male discrimination against women in the developed world when compared to other issues. — Txastopher

But significant enough for a thread.

The privileged are blind to their own privilege.

If you're suggesting that I don't consider that women have a collective grievance, then you're wrong.
Nevertheless, I question the relative of importance of male discrimination against women in the developed world when compared to other issues. — Txastopher

If there can be International Grandparents Day, for instance, then I would argue that ‘relative importance’ of a day acknowledging the significance of women’s contribution to society despite discrimination by that society (not specifically by males, in my opinion) is warranted, without overstating the situation.

For this reason, I suggest that since pitting men and women against each other may have a political benefit for particular groups, then it is not unreasonable to suggest that these groups would promote such a state of affairs. International Women's Day being but one way of furthering this objective. — Txastopher

What particular groups? I may not have seen every promotion of International Women’s Day, but I haven’t really noticed a lot of ‘pitting men and women against each other’ - except to hear grumbles from certain people (and the media using conflict as click bait) who might interpret a celebration of women as denigration of men by default. I would hope that a man’s sense of identity and pride is not so connected to patriarchal default that he feels threatened by women uniting in a show of strength and dignity. If that’s the case, then clearly there is still work to be done...

Human society has gone through some dramatic changes and more is on the immediate horizon. In the Western world women are doing pretty great - if anything they are their own worst enemies in that society.

It’s really hard to see what is happening though as we’re in the midst of the changes and I guess we’ll just have to leave it up to the historians of the future to sort out what has happened and is happening now in regards to how the social rights of women have altered and how birth control has effected women’s positioning (preference and otherwise) in the greater picture.

The biggest difference is the problem of monetizing jobs women generally prefer. Nursing is not really an industry that can be scaled up and/or expanded. A software engineer can provide millions of people whilst a nurse provides a handful. The simple truth is the issue of commercial value not being easily balanced against human value. I hope this will be more seriously addressed in the immediate future rather than posturing about trivial issues that are a symptom of this greater underlying problem.

Who's blind here? So many privileges exist, what's your solution? Why do you think the only privileges which people harp on about are group identities?

It's an interpretative focus that causes destruction and pain, all I saw on international women's day was comparing women to men, making politically motivated arguments demanding equality of outcome for women and explaining statistics as evidence of sexism despite not being able to eliminate alternative explanations. Placing the "female" identity above all individual characteristics.

I don't share the absurd goals people who talk about "privileges" do and even if I did, I can only see madness in their methods. Most women I speak to just want to be seen for what they bring to the table just like anybody else, to get what's fair. That means placing their individual qualities above their group identity, reducing the interpretative priority of their gender which might overshadow their individual traits, not harping on about privilege and throwing a pity party or giving them handouts.

If there are serious problems, let those problems be dealt with as problems for everyone, all who believe in equality of opportunity and prioritisation of the individual.

I don't think what I want will happen, we'll see how well focusing on group identity reduces the prevalence of negative or harmful opinions about group identities.

The privileged are blind to their own privilege. — Banno

"When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."-Clay Shirky

A software engineer can provide millions of people whilst a nurse provides a handful. — I like sushi

You're kidding right? As a person that works in the emergency department this is false.

Privilege is not s dirty word. I am privileged for many different reasons, and I imagine what I deem “privilege” others would view as a detriment to their being if they had my position.

To me the term is much like “potential”. Yet we don’t scorn people for having “potential” we scorn them for not using their potential. I guess my question is why do some people use “privilege” like a weapon against others, like it is a dirty mark on their being? How about saying to people “You have privileges, appreciate them and do your best. If not then you’ll probably not find much respect in your fellow humans.”

My potential is my privilege. My privilege is my potential. How I deal with this is on my conscience and I certainly don’t need others to point at me saying I don’t “deserve” this or that because it is irrelevant being nothing more than someone voicing their resentment and disregard to their own personal potential. That said, I guess we all go through this stage in our lives where we feel the natural injustice of being (nature) and choose to blame others rather than knuckle down and fight on against ourselves and our inner demons.

Why do you think I am kidding? Does a single nurse treat millions of people every day? No. When they go home and sleep are they still caring for their patients? No. Although the effects of their treatment certainly don’t end there.

I wasn’t saying anything outrageous.

It is a horrible fact that the commercial value of a service doesn’t parallel the human value. If it did nurses would get paid more money, but even then the issue - as I was pointing out - is that one-to-one care of a person serves ONE person. Given that one person pays for a service then it means that only ONE person is paying the nurse. A programmer serves multiple people at once and therefore is paid for their service by a MULTITUDE of people at once.

That is all I was saying.

If men who practice sodomy can get a day of recognition, (Gay Pride Day); if the dead can get Halloween; if Jesus can get both Christmas AND Easter (not fair), I suppose women can have a day too. What the hell.

I’m going to start having days based on inanimate objects. Today is now my official Table Day ... hope the chairs don’t get all offended! :D

Note: Tomorrow will be Teapot Day so I expect everyone in the morning to sing “I’m a little teapot ...”

I may not have seen every promotion of International Women’s Day, but I haven’t really noticed a lot of ‘pitting men and women against each other’ — Possibility

I'm referring to this type of activity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Women%27s_Strike_2018

this criticism of potential opposition between progressive forces and identity-based politics is at its very weakest when it is leveled against feminism, because feminism is the identity-based politic that reaches the largest population group. — Akanthinos

When half the population claims that it is oppressed by the other half, I would say that the opposition is at its strongest.

The privileged are blind to their own privilege. — Banno

This is a Hans Christian Anderson quote, right?

I don't think so. it is an observation I've seen confirmed over and over again. An odd fragility; an inability to see the irony of "I question the relative of importance of male discrimination against women in the developed world when compared to other issues" in a thread they've set up to discuss that very issue. Viewing the issue in antagonistic, military terms.

Like incel, the more you wail, the more pathetic you appear.

Like incel, the more you wail, the more pathetic you appear. — Banno

Wow! That escalated quickly.

I'm referring to this type of activity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Women%27s_Strike_2018 — Txastopher

So am I - do you really view this activity as ‘pitting women against men’? A single day of non-violent action to draw attention to a number of ongoing issues and the scope of their continuing impact on society? Really?

do you really view this activity as ‘pitting women against men’? — Possibility

If you dedicate a day to telling half the population that they're being exploited and abused by the other half and thus should strike in order to "stop the patriarchal, capitalist and predatory system" then it is likely that this message might persist into at least some of the other days of the year, no?

To reiterate my point. The situation in Europe (where I live) regarding women's rights, whilst not being perfect, is not at crisis point either. Call it divide and rule or call it a smokescreen, International Women's Day, as it is celebrated here, is a convenient distraction from more pressing issues.

a convenient distraction from more pressing issues. — Txastopher

SO let's talk about it some more on this thread...

SO let's talk about it some more on this thread... — Banno

I'm reluctant to engage with you directly, but do feel free to read my comments.

Human society has gone through some dramatic changes and more is on the immediate horizon. In the Western world women are doing pretty great - if anything they are their own worst enemies in that society.

It’s really hard to see what is happening though as we’re in the midst of the changes and I guess we’ll just have to leave it up to the historians of the future to sort out what has happened and is happening now in regards to how the social rights of women have altered and how birth control has effected women’s positioning (preference and otherwise) in the greater picture.

The biggest difference is the problem of monetizing jobs women generally prefer. Nursing is not really an industry that can be scaled up and/or expanded. A software engineer can provide millions of people whilst a nurse provides a handful. The simple truth is the issue of commercial value not being easily balanced against human value. I hope this will be more seriously addressed in the immediate future rather than posturing about trivial issues that are a symptom of this greater underlying problem. — I like sushi

Wow. I’ll admit, I honestly thought this kind of conversation was behind us, but clearly I was wrong. And then I realised that I work in an industry that has no gender pay gap - because it was traditionally an industry ‘preferred’ by women, although my role (being relatively new) has been about 50/50. I have been privileged in that respect, but it also renders me ignorant of the scope of resentment towards women’s demand for equal rights in the workforce - and the fundamental misunderstanding of what that means.

It has nothing to with a nurse being paid the same as a software engineer - it’s about women being paid the same rate as a software engineer...for doing the same job as a software engineer.

If you dedicate a day to telling half the population that they're being exploited and abused by the other half and thus should strike in order to "stop the patriarchal, capitalist and predatory system" then it is likely that this message might persist into at least some of the other days of the year, no?

To reiterate my point. The situation in Europe (where I live) regarding women's rights, whilst not being perfect, is not at crisis point either. Call it divide and rule or call it a smokescreen, International Women's Day, as it is celebrated here, is a convenient distraction from more pressing issues. — Txastopher

Where is the source of your quote? The message I got was a reminder that there are still many instances of exploitation and oppression against women occurring around the world, despite my own situation being pretty good. We need to continue to support these women and draw attention to their situation, as well as celebrating the various inroads we have made towards equality so far...

Where is the source of your quote? — Possibility

El 8 de marzo vamos a parar el sistema patriarcal, capitalista y depredador ‼️ Todas A LA HUELGA

Women do get paid the same amount for doing the same job. That has been the law for a long time.

The amount of data showing that women get paid less for doing the same work is sparse to non-existent. In some cases women get paid more. An issue is that people are not open and honest about reasons for income differences and skew the stats to press their cases - intentionally or otherwise.

It is quite clear that the shift in societal roles of males and females has not fully settled. I do think the commercial value of job preferences needs to be looked at. Some even argue that job choices are due to psychological conditioning from an early age (to which there will undoubtedly be some truth). The problem is by the time we see the effects the cause has long since passed and we have to do our best to adjust accordingly.

I do think it is unfair that nurses get paid so little, yet at the same time we’re talking about an industry of sorts and so profit margins do matter - even if the government covers some of the costs.

It is also clear that “resentment” goes two ways. The harder one side pushes the harder the other pushes back. It appears to me this has always been the case and that the modern difference is that mass global communications has led to the periphery radicals being more influential than they would’ve been 20-30 years ago.

It will be fascinating to see the lay of the land in another 20-30 years as generations fill in the job vacancies of the aged.

So, your problem is not with International Women’s Day in general, but with the political message of a specific, local event. Thank you for clarifying your point. Let’s try not to over-generalise and further sabotage or draw attention away from addressing more important issues such as the global shift towards gender equality and ending discrimination and violence against women, then, shall we?

Let’s try not to over-generalise and further sabotage or draw attention away from addressing more important issues such as the global shift towards gender equality and ending discrimination and violence against women, then, shall we? — Possibility

I'm flattered, but you overestimate my influence.

Could you point out in that Wiki article what you find so sinister? There is litterally nothing wrong displayed there.

As for the opposition being strongest, you just showed your colours. Feminism is not in opposition to the male population. I am a male and there is no quantifiable meaningful loss of power for me in face of the feminist agenda's progress. Because I never espoused any form of ideology that gave me value over women based on my gender (thats not me claiming I was always woke, btw, that is purely conditional on me being raised in a family of mostly women intellectuals).

Feminism is in opposition to the ideology (if you can even call it that) of patriarchal control and to the structural conditions of women's biopolitical serfdom. You can only be in opposition to it because you positionned yourself to be so.