Wish it were that easy. — Posty McPostface

But do you.

But do you. — Wayfarer

Do I what?

Do you really wish it were easy?

Posty

Depression is the manifest form of self loathing or self dislike, it is the conscious or unconscious yearning for an alternative self, one that seems empirically unattainable. If the reasoning or deeper motives behind the dislike AND the yearning are not understood, the depression is impossible to treat via a metacogntitive approach, as you have suggested.

Because: Depression is the consequence of an established dysfunctional metacognition upon the fundamental dialogue between the pure essence, the entire truth of the self, and the external world that (appears to) contain that self.

One cannot think appropriately about the 'depressive thinking' if indeed the first order realm (the dialogue between self and reality) is not properly understood.

This secondary realm of depressive thought exists as a meta-cognitive state in that one is already thinking negatively about ones thinking. The application or process evolution of the depressive feelings, is a metacognition of the primary (self-reality) dialogue. The depression is a metacognition in that it is thought upon the interface between reality and the self.

This dialogue produces 'evidence' that is used to logically to initiate and or potentiate the depressive state vis; I am a bad person, I am unkind dishonest, unworthy, I do not fit in the world, I dislike people and the company of others, I do not wish to engage with the world today, life is pointless, meaningless and worthless....etc. All this sentiment arises out of a dysfunctional metacognition upon the dialogue between the self and the sensory inputs that are arriving from outside the self. One can assume that the primary inputs are de facto intact (as long as one is not having delusions) and therefore it is not the input but rather the primary self that is being misunderstood by the depressive. Vis a poorly constructed secondary (meta) notion of self.

One has called this thinking 'ones depression' and therefore the recognition of ones depression as an undesired experience, confines the depressive dialogue with himself/herself to one of a metacognition upon a poorly defined primary self, as that self is perceived to interact with external reality.

The solution is not to create a meta-meta-cognition but rather to collapse the first meta-cognition upon the primary dialogue between self and reality, and this can only be effected through guided or self directed introspective analysis of the self. (Not necessarily of the Freudian variety)

If the metacognised reasoning is exposed via successful introspection or analysis, they can be encountered and potential rationalized in keeping with the survival instincts. And this will go some distance to collapsing the initial metacognition, as depression is contrary to survival and is self destructive.

Once the initial reasonings (within the primary metacognition are rationalised) they almost invariably become weakened, and less effective as causative logical points around which the depression orbits simply because in recognition they are then exposed to reason, and reason is generally in conformity with the instinct for survival.

Reason tells us that we have rights to live and be happy, if the exposed reasonings at the base of the self loathing/depression are subjected to logical impartial reason, they invariably begin to weaken.


It is OK to fail
It is OK to be gay
It is ok to be "just" a waitress
It is ok if ones parents consider one to be a failure... etc
It is ok to be the truth of the self.

The primary dialogue between the self and input from without, must be subjected to a logical analysis by the self and in doing so the depressive metacognition of this dialogue will then begin to collapse. One engages with the world in harmony with self. One begins to find peace.. not with the world but first with the self.

Know thyself, and then know thyself some more... wisdom is to be at peace with the world.

M

Do you really wish it were easy? — Wayfarer

Yes, I would wish that it were easier to get out of my rut. But, as I mentioned before, my depression seems endogenous and deeply buried in my psyche. I feel somewhat hopeless about getting better, and what's left for me is to cope with it.

Wayfarer said it. "I was lucky to enrol in an awareness-training group when I was in my twenties. Helped a lot, but seeing people coming to terms with their buried memories (colloquialised as 'elephants') was an eye-opening experience."

But what is far far worse than what others and the world has done to you, is what you've done to them. Those are the memories that are buried deepest. Imagine the most hatred and vitriol you've ever mustered at anyone, disrespect, distrust, and disregard being felt about you. Not by anyone else, where you can ignore it, or tell yourself things to feel better, but by you, and inescapable.

Yes, I think that you have to feel bad enough about yourself to end it all... but, you know, hopefully in the change and become a different person way, rather than literally kill yourself.

The solution is not to create a meta-meta-cognition but rather to collapse the first meta-cognition upon the primary dialogue between self and reality, and this can only be effected through guided or self directed introspective analysis of the self. (Not necessarily of the Freudian variety) — Marcus de Brun

But, what about disidentification? Doesn't that seem like a solution to the meta-cognitive depressive realm? I feel as though, disidentification is a stepping stone to getting better in terms of replacing a distorted metacognition with some other more useful one. I don't believe one can completely disidentify with anything, just that it can serve as the kick-start switch to finding alternative or better metacognitions to abide by.

But, what about disidentification?Doesn't that seem like a solution to the meta-cognitive depressive realm?

No NO NO!

I suspect that your depression is getting worse since you have contaminated your wonderfuly capable and kind brain with this muck.

I will say it again for the last time.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO DISIDENTIFY WITH YOURSELF

On the contrary.

I suspect that you quite simply do not know things about yourself. (Rumsfeldian things... things that you don't know that you know) You need to figure these things out and embrace them because THEY do not really matter (and unless they are criminal things) they need to be embraced!

You have a great mind and you are (it seems) a kind person. Remove the offending digit from the dark place, find out who and what you are and embrace it, (warts and all) before you are old, or before your depression deprives you of more life!

Would the real slim-shady please stand up!

M

I suspect that your depression is getting worse since you have contaminated your wonderfuly capable and kind brain with this muck. — Marcus de Brun

It's always been there. Just haven't addressed it enough as of late. I still wallow around and feel some hope for the future. I guess you can call it a meta-cognitive belief about being depressed about being depressed. I wonder how you tackle those nasty beliefs?

YOU DO NOT NEED TO DISIDENTIFY WITH YOURSELF — Marcus de Brun

OK, I'll take it easy on the disidentification thing for now.

What if I thought to myself: "My depression is a low, how about I indulged in the high." Would that alleviate my depression? By highs I don't mean use of stimulants. I mean finding natural expressions of life which allow me to indulge in my passions (or what I would consider my best self-appreciated expressions of life), like hobbies and stuff. Perhaps if I included them regularly into my life schedule I could stave off depression. Is this practical?

What if the depression is hereditary? Meaning, in the genetic makeup of the individual. Does one just have to cope with it then? — Posty McPostface

How would you ever know whether it is hereditary, "in the genetic makeup"? If you can never know, then the question would seem to be irrelevant. Assume, though, for the sake of argument that you cannot ever get rid of your depression; so you are left with coping with it.

Now obviously coping can be more or less effective. But if you cope more effectively with your depression, doesn't that mean it is dispelled more than if you cope with it less effectively? So you can't get rid of it entirely, perhaps, but you can dispel it more or less, depending on how well you cope with it, no?

I lay in bed most of the day, so I know how intense the depression is. It isn't intolerable, just persistent apathy and lack of interest in things. — Posty McPostface

Do you ever go for long walks? If not, why not try it and see what it does to your mood? Going for long walks might be one weapon in the armory of better coping.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO DISIDENTIFY WITH YOURSELF — Marcus de Brun

What could it even mean to disidentify with yourself; short of developing some kind of dissociative personality disorder? What you need to do is to disidentify with the often introjected, inauthentic thoughts that stop you from freely being yourself and enjoying your life.

I mean, at minimum. I'm reminded of Hercules' choice. Vice and virtue come to visit him while he is solitary in the mountains. Vice offers him a pleasing, pleasurable life, but virtue, a hard and difficult life, but with the possibility of glory.

If you can't derive pleasure from life, I mean you aren't really trying at all... usually if you aren't doing it, it means that you're doing it too much, or wrong. Sleeping too much, eating too much, lazying about too often. So, your suggestion is quite correct. At minimum at least make sure you're doing it right. That is difficult though, particularly in the face of boredom and isolation. Pain killing of poor circumstances, traumas, and all manner of life's ills. That itself is difficult to do, but that isn't even yet the difficult path. It's hardly glorious to not be grossly indulgent to the point of self harm.

What's glorious is something else entirely, and inapplicable to the measures of pleasure and pain. Glory, respect from others and self, an unconscious sense of confidence and self-worth that transforms your entire being, and perspective into something else entirely. Pegasus, friend of the muses, and himself considered the inspiration in place of the muses for poetry in the 19th century.

To be self-content, satisfied in a way that just doesn't register on the same plane as the pleasure and pain dynamic. Something that nearly renders that irrelevant.

Q: It's always been there. Just haven't addressed it enough as of late. I still wallow around and feel some hope for the future. I guess you can call it a meta-cognitive belief about being depressed about being depressed. I wonder how you tackle those nasty beliefs?

A: Philosophy.

I get to use the 'I' when I philosophize, and in life it is not so much the body that is in need of masturbation, but rather the mind.

I know that ones psychology is the child of ones philosophy and the metaphorical house is in turmoil when the child is dictating to the parent.

Philosophy cuts with two blades. It brings awareness and awareness necessarily brings dis-ease. Stupid people are often as happy, and very often happier than thinking people. The only consolation to this human irony is the fact that Philosophy can at times bring a deeper more lasting and more profound sense of happiness and ease with the world than ignorance.

The state of unhappiness is the state of self destruction. This can only be tackled in two principle ways, one must fight the self and one must understand the self.

To fight, simply means to get out of bed in the morning and embrace the fundamental realities of life despite the pain. One must on occasion take a hiatus from the battle with self, the question of self, not by lying in bed and wallowing but rather by an escape into a structured simple plan for your day, this is the fight. Almost of Kant's magnificence was constructed upon and around the dicipline of getting out of bed in the morning and going for his walk.

You must ultimately win the battle against the self in order to understand the self and to do so you must arise from the bed and confine the demon to a somewhat disciplined routine. Arise, wash, put on fresh clothes, comb ones hair and move from the zone of pain out into the Universe and experience its horror and beauty whilst being the master of the self. One must satisfy the needs of the self but one must first understand what are the fundamental basis of those same needs.

One must bring order to the chaos of the metaphorical house, this is the fight. You have two allies in this fight, your first is the infinite beauty of nature, that remains unseen in the midst of struggle. Thoreau is your companion here. If it is raining outside your bedroom then go outside and whilst you are walking hear the drops upon your umbrella.

HEAR the DROPS, each one is the toll of a bell that was first rung at the birth of the universe. Each drop is united by inexplicable deeply mysterious forces of gravity and electrostatic attraction, each one contains trace elements of pollution, of gases liberated by the molecular decay of dinosaur flesh and bones, archaic forests a hundred million years old, melted into oil, drilled from the bowls of the earth and fired into the atmosphere from the exhaust of a car that is ferrying some other poor unhappy blind soul, into the endless drudgery of his own painful and imperfect existence.

One drop of rain is all you need to embrace the infinite joy of Philosophy. If you do as old Philosophy bids, arise from the bed and go for a REAL walk.. you will encounter more than one beautiful drop of rain.

Life is a beautiful horror, WE are life.

You must fight the horror and live the beautiful.

Philosophy is the walk of life.

M

Is it outside the realm of possibility that "depression" is the mind's way of dealing with the inability to adapt to being a prisoner of conscious experience?

Is it outside the realm of possibility that "depression" is the mind's way of dealing with the inability to adapt to being a prisoner of conscious experience?

The criticism I would have of this assertion (we almost always put criticism before thought here on the forum), is largely confined to the rather meek nature of the preamble to your idea: "is it outside the realm of possibility".

The gentle nature of the delivery is 'nice', however the thought which comes after is rather profound, and is in no way 'outside the realm of possibility', but rather (as I hope you know) strikes at the heart of the matter, and is closer to the truth of depression than most objective analysis I have encountered to date.

The idea demands sustenance and should be formulated into an essay (I would like to read same). You must expand upon the terms you have used. What do you mean by 'the minds way' the 'inability to adapt' and the rather beautiful phrase....'a prisoner of conscious experience'.

You have a kernal of precious ore here, and you owe it to Old Philosophy to refine this idea into gold.

To hell with the realm of possibility, strike at the impossible.

M

Vice and virtue come to visit him while he is solitary in the mountains. Vice offers him a pleasing, pleasurable life, but virtue, a hard and difficult life, but with the possibility of glory. — All sight

The above quote by @All sight is a reflection of something Socrates says: "For I am in want, and he has enough; and he only gives you the appearance of happiness, and I give you the reality."
He (Socrates) was pointing out the imbalance between material justice (based on flawed human perception) vs real or absolute justice.

The point I'm trying to make is that, even in your depression you seem to have cultivated quite a discerning level of self-awareness that self-improvement seems inevitable if not fated. That, perhaps, your rehabilitation from depression may have began long before the realisation of it.

So, perhaps the reality of your struggle is not how to counter the depression but to accept a state where you transcend the need for (or dependency on) emotional highs (especially those which are shared) and choose to live with the meagre rewards which accompany the solitary life of self-reflection and self-assertion. Maybe a re-definition of your depression is in order.

This (depression) seems to often be a concern with many philosophers and it may have presented you with the challenge of whether you can integrate in the world again in your individuality after having overcome the social bond of 'mass dependency'. A kind of re-defining your stance/stake in life.

I thought I should add this:

Don't eliminate emotional highs from your life (especially those which are shared), instead determine how best to incorporate them. It could be like attempting a life of full awareness where you limit the idea of 'chance' or 'luck' as much as possible by increasing the level of self-actualization. Life becomes more of what you choose to do than what just happens.