• Marchesk
    4.6k
    I'm not denying that there are ongoing environmental issues that need to be dealt with. This is about doomsday predictions which have (so far) failed to come to pass.

    I grew up in the 80s in the USA, where apocalyptic scenarios in religion, foreign affairs, the environment and science fiction were common. I recently went back and reread a book called Nature's End published in 1986. It's a fictional novel set in the mid 2020s where the Earth's population has had such a devastating effect on the environment, that a popular movement to implement a death lotto of 1/3 of the world's population is gaining serious momentum.

    This book painted a pretty grim picture of what is now our very near future. And the population that was overwhelming the planet was 7 billion. It's 2018 and we're around 7.6 headed to over 8 by the mid 2020s. And yet it's not had near the same catastrophic impact that plenty of people thought it would back in the 80s.

    Paul Ehrlich wrote the famous Population Bomb in the late 60s, predicting large scale famines in the 70s and 80s, and a need to implement policies to encourage reducing the growth rate to zero to avoid catastrophe. He has been wrong so far. At one point a popular estimate for the carrying capacity of the Earth was around 4 billion max. Now it's at 10 billion, with larger estimates based on future advances in technology (which is controversial and the range varies a great deal depending on how advanced and efficient future tech gets).

    I also recall worries in the 80s about the rate of deforestation of the Amazon Rainforest. There were estimates that the rate at which it was being cutdown would lead to it all being gone by the late 90s. And yet, the majority of the Amazon remains. I'm not saying there aren't issues with deforestation of rainforests, but we haven't come close to cutting it all down yet.

    And finally, there is global warming, now called climate change. Again, I'm not denying this is an issue we have to deal with, but I've heard my share of apocalyptic visions of drastic environmental changes due to having so much CO2 in the atmosphere.

    I was listening to an recent audio book from a paleontologist who studies dinosaurs. He mentioned that the CO2 in the atmosphere when the dinosaurs first evolved was six times what it is now (2500 ppm).
    This was leftover from several million years of active volcanoes in Siberia that had cause a 90% mass extinction a few million years earlier.

    Yet despite a hot Earth, Life still flourished. Granted, he does mention extremes in weather due to the much hotter climate, and vast inland deserts. But some of that had to do with the geography of Pangea (one super continent with one super ocean).

    There are more examples (peak oil, massive ocean garbage patches), but the effect of hearing that the sky is falling over and over is that I become a bit skeptical after a while. Maybe the really bad stuff has just been delayed (predictions are off by a few decades to a century). Or maybe the really bad scenarios are what the media likes to report on, even though they're outliers, and perhaps some environmentalists figured that alarming the public was a good way to curb worrisome behaviors.

    I still see claims of environmental doom, and have read a couple recent fictional books similar to Nature's End. Also, the two Blade Runner movies present a similarly bleak environmental future. I am aware that a certain strain of libertarian and conservative politics strongly believes that human ingenuity overcomes all problems, and that environmental alarmism is dangerous, because it can result in policies that hold progress back. According to them, the Earth is not a limited resource for us (we can get energy from the sun, grow meat in labs, have engineered microbes eat pollution, etc.)

    What do you think?
  • SophistiCat
    2.2k
    What do you think?Marchesk

    I think you should more critically evaluate your sources and not lump together science-fiction and actual science.
  • BC
    13.6k
    Rachel Carson's Silent Spring (1962) or Ehrlich's Population Bomb and others began a change in our thinking about the environment where we began to recognize that the effects we were having on the earth was not benign. Over time, more not-benign or decidedly malignant environmental effects have been identified.

    Apocalypses are more interesting to write, read, and talk about than gradual changes. That the Amazon rainforest shrank 1.03% over the last 6 years is much less interesting than reports that the rainforest will vanish in 50 years (both figures just now plucked from thin air). "Whole neighborhoods collapsing into piles of dust" is much more interesting than reading about slow termite damage. It isn't just the media -- most of us like disaster reporting.

    I think there is real, solid evidence of environmental change (population, CO2, ocean and atmospheric heating, sea rise, climate change, non-renewable resource depletion, etc.). Some predictions have to remain vague, some can be quite precise. Still, the biosphere of the planet has more working parts than we can account for at any one time.

    Take peak oil: IF what I have read is true, then the petroleum industry has had solid and reliable information about oil reserves for many years. Their information shows that oil we be depleted (after the year of peak oil) over about the same length of time that was required to reach peak oil -- a little over a century. So, if in 2000 we arrived at peak oil, we will exhaust the obtainable oil in the ground around 2130.

    2130 sounds far less apocalyptic than "OMG! there will be no more oil in just a few years!" On the other hand, once we pass peak oil (as we have), petroleum will become a costlier and less secure commodity.

    The SW United States depends on the Colorado River for a good share of its water. Because of the long-term drought in the SW region, the snowpack and flow of the Colorado has been significantly diminished. Lake Mead (the main storage reservoir) is quite low and many climatologists do not expect that it will ever refill to its former level.

    A declining water supply hasn't triggered an exodus from the desert SW states. In fact, people are still moving there. Are they being sensible? No -- they are not facing facts. When the SW runs out of water, they will have to move in short order or die.

    The opposite problem is occurring in Florida. Florida's already high water table is being pushed higher by rising ocean levels. Yards in southern Florida that used to be dry now have pools of standing water. One would think the real estate market would collapse, but... not so. Sellers just don't talk about the problem.

    At 72, I am not going to experience climate doom. Most likely, those born after 2060 will have the best seats in the house to observe major, malignant changes. Life isn't going to come to an end in 2100 in any case. It will be, as the curse goes, "interesting times".
  • BC
    13.6k
    I think you should more critically evaluate your soSophistiCat

    Yes, he should. I love well done apocalypse and post-apocalypse fiction, especially when we are not saved by a convenient deus ex machina. To the extent I am pessimistic about the climate's future, apocalyptic fiction has nothing to do with it.

    From the science articles I have read, it seems clear that the rainforests have been diminished by human agency. The Amazon rainforest isn't in danger of disappearing, but it is shrinking at a time when the more forest we have, the better.

    "Global forest area has been reduced by 40% over the last three centuries, primarily as a result of human activities, particularly the conversion of forested land to agricultural usage" Shvidenko et al., 2005 -- probably more than anybody wants to know...

    Ahead we will see large losses from drought and heat, which make it possible for new insect vectors and their diseases to spread into previously uninfected forests, both coniferous and deciduous.

    There are also exotic species that are spreading through the forests, like the Asian Longhorn Beetle that kills maples. The Hemlock Woolly Adelgid weakens or kills hemlock trees. The Emerald Ash Borer is spreading through urban and rural ash forests as we speak. Thousand Cankers Disease kills black walnut trees and is spread by the Walnut Twig Beetle that has migrated illegally out of the SW United States.
  • Marchesk
    4.6k
    It's more a commentary on public perception and media repointing, which can influence policy. We're currently on our way to around 11 billion people by the end of the century, so there's a question of what the Earth's carrying capacity is, whether technology changes that, how resilient various ecosystems are to continued human pressure, and so on.

    If this was just a science question, I wouldn't post it in a philosophy forum. But it's a question about perception regarding environmental concerns.
  • Marchesk
    4.6k
    From the science articles I have read, it seems clear that the rainforests have been diminished by human agency. The Amazon rainforest isn't in danger of disappearing, but it is shrinking at a time when the more forest we have, the better.Bitter Crank

    Right, so there's a difference between being concerned about deforestation and helping people understand the value the Amazon has for a healthy planet, and saying OMG, in 30 years, less than 10% of the Amazon will be left. We're screwed.

    Popular fiction often takes its clues from public perception. So in Avatar, which was a wonderful movie, you have the main character telling the Gaia of Pandora how humanity had killed it's Earth-mother, and nothing green grows there any longer. Granted, it's fiction and taking liberties with projections of human impact into the future.

    But why does it feel the need to paint a doomsday picture of the future, where nothing green grows on Earth? Because that idea has been in the air the past several decades. You hear how we're in the 6th mass global extinction, half of all species will be gone by 2101, bee colony collapse could effect crop production in a major way, the frog disappearances and lack of insect splatter being canaries in the coal mine. EO Wilson has warned that the Earth could be on life support by the end of the 21st, and that we cant' support 10 billion plus people modernizing to match Western consumption.

    But there's another view that isn't quite so popular. It's that human ingenuity overcomes problems, and that we can and will support that many people without turning Earth into a hell hole.

    So, you have on reaction to the possibility of future environmental collapse being that we need to curb economic and population growth, and change consumption habits in a major way to avoid the worst. The other view is that growth is what fuels technology and funds science, so we shouldn't be curbing growth, because that's what will get us through. Humans will adapt their consumption as more efficient means of consumption become available.
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    I think the unfortunate fact is that the world is so interconnected, and the scale of the issues so enormous, that global catastrophe is a real possibility.

    There's something called Earth Overshoot day, which is a calculated, illustrative calendar date on which humanity’s resource consumption for the year exceeds Earth’s capacity to regenerate those resources that year. Earth Overshoot Day is calculated by dividing the world bio-capacity (the amount of natural resources generated by Earth that year), by the world ecological footprint (humanity's consumption of Earth’s natural resources for that year), and multiplying by 365, the number of days in one Gregorian common calendar year. In 1987, that date was Dec 19th; last year it was August 2nd. And there's many other data sets and indicators that can be used to illustrate resource depletion.

    For the many unfortunates who are already climate-change refugees or fleeing over-populated regions - the Rohingya come to mind - environment catastrophe and overpopulation are already catastrophes.

    There's a lot of points short of 'nothing green growing' which could still culminate in billions of deaths or severe famines. It is true that many of the 60's forecasts were ameliorated by for example the Green Revolution, and I certainly think that there might be scientific and technological solutions. But the democratic governments are not showing much leadership or will to lead in these matters.

    Actually one thing to bear in mind - Sept 18th 2008 - that was the apex of the GFC, the worst day of the crisis. The world came very close, that day, to financial catastrophe. You might wonder what 'financial catastrophe' means, but, as far as I can tell, it means that all the banks close, and currency loses all value. If you think through how that would unwind over the weeks and months ahead, then....

    About a year ago, there was a magazine article on global warming that scared the bejesus out of me. Still can't shake the graphic. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.html
  • Marchesk
    4.6k
    About a year ago, there was a magazine article on global warming that scared the bejesus out of me. Still can't shake the graphic. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.htmlWayfarer

    That article is a perfect example of environmental "alarmism". I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong. I don't know the future. But I have heard this sort of thing for the past 30 years, and the doomsday scenarios haven't come about, at least not yet.

    But when I hear other things like the CO2 was six times what it is now 240 mya, but life still flourished, it makes me wonder. Granted, life had millions of years to adapt to a very hot and tumultuous climate, and we'd only have decades. And yes, a large methane release would have worrisome short term effects.

    But is this sort of possibility likely, and is it something we should avoid at all costs? Is it something that should require the governments of the world to strongly curb economic activity, enact population controls, or whatever extreme measure is needed? Or is it something we will naturally adapt to as the technology becomes available in the market place?

    For the many unfortunates who are already climate-change refugees or fleeing over-populated regions - the Rohingya come to mind - environment catastrophe and overpopulation are already catastrophes.Wayfarer

    Yes, but the number living in abject poverty is falling, and the main issue is resource access, which is more of a political and economic problem than it is environmental. But it's also true the largest population growth is taking place in countries with the least infrastructure to handle it. So that's a big concern.
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    Hope you're right, M. My father - who had a big professional stake, as he was involved with WHO population dynamics - was very pessimistic about the big picture. Things haven't been as bad as he had predicted back in the 60's and 70's. So, I hope you're right, but I fear not.
  • ChatteringMonkey
    1.3k
    I will not go into the enviromental problems themselves, i do think there are serious problems, but say something about the strategy to do something about it, as that's what your title of the OP 'enviromental alarmism' is pointing to i think.

    To get goverments to act, you got to convince politicians in power. To convince politicians in democraties you got to convince the people, because in the end politicans care about staying in power, and therefor want to be seen supporting issues that will get them votes.

    Alarmism, or scare-politics, is a common way to influence people to care about an issue. That is a strategy that politicans use themselves, as do activitists. The problem is that it can also backfire, the boy cried wolf et al... And to some extend that is what has happened with enviromental issues.

    Prophesies of doom have been to apocalyptical and to frequent. And to much scientist have become activists, which compromises their objectivity, at least in perception, and discredits their work as a scientist. As a result people have become divided on the issue, into camps of believers and non-believers. The more polarised a debate becomes, the more heated it becomes and the more it tends to entrenchment of the camps.

    This has probably to some extend prevented pragmatic policies from being implemented. For the believers it was probably never enough, and the non-believers don't want to give in to the lies and all-or-nothing rethoric of the believers...

    Anyway, i think what is needed to make some real progress arround this issue, is some serentity.
  • Marchesk
    4.6k
    Things haven't been as bad as he had predicted back in the 60's and 70's. So, I hope you're right, but I fear notWayfarer

    I don't know what being right is. I vacillate between things will work out and we're doomed. Maybe it's somewhere in between.
  • Marchesk
    4.6k
    Alarmism, or scare-politics, is a common way to influence people to care about an issue. That is a strategy that politicans use themselves, as do activitists. The problem is that it can also backfire, the boy cried wolf et al... And to some extend that is what has happened with enviromental issues.ChatteringMonkey

    That's what I was wondering. I do think longterm it tends to backfire. There's only so many apocalyptic scenarios one can hear before most people just end up shrugging and going on with their lives. Or they react to feeling mislead by supporting the other side, even if there is reason to care about the issue.
  • ChatteringMonkey
    1.3k
    That's what I was wondering. I do think longterm it tends to backfire. There's only so many apocalyptic scenarios one can hear before most people just end up shrugging and going on with their lives. Or they react to feeling mislead by supporting the other side, even if there is reason to care about the issue.Marchesk

    Yeah, i agree.
  • Marchesk
    4.6k
    This has probably to some extend prevented pragmatic policies from being implemented. For the believers it was probably never enough, and the non-believers don't want to give in to the lies and all-or-nothing rethoric of the believers...ChatteringMonkey

    This is sadly true of politics in general, or at least it has been in US politics the last couple decades. I wish the pragmatic approach would win out, but polarized people tend to be more motivated to vote and put pressure on their representatives. Compromise should be seen as one of the foundations for a healthy democracy. We won't always agree, but there is usually a reasonable middle ground.
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