• Heiko
    118
    This is another problem with the idea of free will. Rationality is a guideline for thinking and as such constrains our choices. To act in a rational way is to limit one’s choices. In short to be rational is not to be free.TheMadFool
    Formally the number of potential choices increases when thinking about which things one should not do in any case. Nor is an "objective" decision tree an adequate model for the experience of everyday decision-making neither can be a process guided by reason be deemed to come to arbitrary decisions.

    There are psychological studies proving that our brain makes a decision 5-10 seconds before we consciously realize, hence, who is making the choice?GreyScorpio
    Is this that important? Won't the quality of the biases produced that way depend largely on how you approach things on a daily basis? Sometimes on weekends I wake up just at the time when the alarm-clock would ring on weekdays. May be an analogy.
  • GreyScorpio
    98
    Is this that important? Won't the quality of the biases produced that way depend largely on how you approach things on a daily basis? Sometimes on weekends I wake up just at the time when the alarm-clock would ring on weekdays. May be an analogy.Heiko

    This is incredibly important because it is and empirical falsifiable truth that we can depend on. The fact that our brain already knows what we are going to do before we are even conscious of the decision that we make, shows entirely that we are not in control of our decision. Of course this is important. In terms of daily approaches, it shouldn't make a difference.
  • Heiko
    118
    So when I play a game of chess and think, say, 10 minutes about my next move, don't you think the thought-process that I am aware of is a significant contribution to the deciding factors which move I actually take?
  • Heiko
    118
    Free will is the idea that we have the power to make our own decisions of which cannot be influenced by anything but our own infliction.GreyScorpio
    Will has to be free because otherwise it would not be "will" but an effect. It's nature is purely ideal. No one can decide if you do something out of free will, but you. It easy to make up situations and say that you somehow must have wanted to do something. - He who wants the purpose must also want the means. - This is a contradiction.

    Everything either has it's price or it's dignity. (Kant)
    Only dignity makes something unconditionally valuable, a value in itself. Free will is free because it does not focus on lower purposes, but on such values-in-itself, making it at the same time your duty as well as the duty of all human beings as a whole.
  • GreyScorpio
    98
    So when I play a game of chess and think, say, 10 minutes about my next move, don't you think the thought-process that I am aware of is a significant contribution to the deciding factors which move I actually take?Heiko

    The thought process is a factor, but as I said, it is an unconscious occurrence. Hence, you may think that you haven't yet made the decision, but it already has been made for you. Furthermore, is it not possible that the possibilities that you have been given in the game of chess (moves that you can make) were already put in hand, which would therefore imply that our choices have been limited. From this point you have to ask yourself. Are we really free?
  • GreyScorpio
    98
    Will has to be free because otherwise it would not be "will" but an effect. It's nature is purely ideal.Heiko

    The very definition of 'Will' is the faculty by which a person makes a decision. However, a decision can be free OR forced. Not every will is free. Decisions are limited as it is, we don't yet understand the concept of free I believe. If you really consider it. Do we even know what free is?
  • ibrust
    11
    You're thinking of choice in a binary manner ... human free will is identified with higher consciousness, the choices are drawn from a void of infinite potential. You're assuming that the range of human choice can be determined by environmental factors, no... human consciousness transcends the surroundings, there is an aspect to consciousness that is not info-cognitive but purely abstract. In that abstract void there is infinite potential because there are no material constraints. It is something like imagination that corresponds to reality and can be applied to reality.
    Computers do not have an imagination, and no infinite void that they draw choices from. Their choices are determined by the informational structure inwhich they are operating.
    In the transcendent sense "choice" is not a binary decision it is the application of will to manifest potential; and choice is a cognitive process and not merely an observed outcome.
  • Heiko
    118
    The very definition of 'Will' is the faculty by which a person makes a decision. However, a decision can be free OR forced. Not every will is free. Decisions are limited as it is, we don't yet understand the concept of free I believe.GreyScorpio
    Will aims at purposes, not means. It is different from the action itself as well as the choosing of means.
    I do not really want to get up and walk to the fridge, I merely want something to drink. Not even that: I do not want to feel thirsty. I want absolute and total satifaction, felicitousness, wellness and sure a few other things else I can not imagine right now.
    See, if you ask me if I really want to do the things I'm doing the answer is generally "no". I only want the true, good and beautiful.

    you may think that you haven't yet made the decision, but it already has been made for you.GreyScorpio
    You mean by my-self, right? I wonder why this should be a problem?

    you have to ask yourself. Are we really free?GreyScorpio
    Are we? Of what? Of yourself? Of others? Of fear, dread and sorrow?
  • GreyScorpio
    98
    Are we? Of what? Of yourself? Of others? Of fear, dread and sorrow?Heiko

    Free to make our own choices, evidently.
  • Marcus de Brun
    337
    If the use of the words "I" and "have"

    were banned from this particular topic we might "have" some hope of at least aspiring towards the truth of the matter.

    It is the worship of the "I" and the primal lust towards the 'having' that mires the will into a paralysis of self serving misunderstanding.

    Let them go (if you dare) and see what happens?

    M
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