Did you hear the NPR story about the Guatemalan woman who was separated from her children due to zero tolerance? With go-fund-me money she got out on bail and was driven up to NYC where her kids were being fostered. — frank

Yes, I did hear the story and I think it was an amazing reunion and they are blessed to be together again.

How many? What is the point you're making? I'm curious. — frank

The point I am making is that the level of international outrage of how many children have been separated from their 'biological' parents seeking asylum is minuscule in comparison to how many unaccompanied children have presented themselves/found wandering after Coyotes got them to the USA desert since January 2018.

We have somewhere near 3,000 kids that we are trying to reunite with their parents whom all came across the USA border illegally and were separated by the Zero Tolerance policy. Additionally we have over 13,000 kids that presented themselves "unaccompanied" in fiscal year 2018.

Where is the outrage of the parents decision to send 13k to the USA alone? The USA is not reaching across the border and snatching kids from their parents arms. You do understand that right?

The USA is not reaching across the border and snatching kids from their parents arms. You do understand that right? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Yes. While trying to find a link to that NPR story (glad you heard it), I saw that Americans adopted about 30,000 Guatemalan children in 2015.

Step 1: Do not give a fuck what non-Americans think about it. It's not their problem.

Step 2: Vote for somebody who has a little bit of morality in 2020. Good idea?

Where is the outrage of the parents decision to send 13k to the USA alone?
and then the second 13k that come from now until December?
Just how many children do you think we can adopt?

How many refugees should the USA accept from other countries that will not accept them?
The USA has agreed to take in over 1,400 refugees from Australia because Aussies think that holding them on Islands in detention camps, without food or medical attention is humane.
How horrible the USA is in taking in immigrants that other countries cannot vet.
If the USA treats it's illegal immigrants so badly, why are people still trying to sneak in?

Where is the outrage of the parents decision to send 13k to the USA alone? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I don't know. I'm picturing Mr and Mrs Lopez teaching their kids how to navigate by the stars so they can get to the Mexican border by themselves.

More likely the Lopez's are either dead or they couldn't care for their kids.

Just how many children do you think we can adopt? — Tiff

Apparently most of the Chinese girls who didn't get dropped in buckets.

A few years back the US was welcoming immigration from the south because of a labor shortage. Why is it a big problem now? To some extent its manufactured. We need those immigration judges so people don't have to wait two years to have their asylum requests heard.

Trump and co. did that on purpose. Playing to their base.

So vote for somebody with a little morality in 2020.

?

Personally, I think engaging with Tiff on immigration is nothing more than a Sisyphean task.

I'm all about eternally returning to awesome moments on the journey up the hill like being fine on a summer morning listening to Modest Mouse.

This story is something straight out of Kafka.

[Delete] @Baden

Personally, I think engaging with Tiff on immigration is nothing more than a Sisyphean task. — Maw

Maw, your remark about me is amazing considering you were the one that moved me on this issue. :sad:

You just keep repeating the same old Fox news talking points, Tiff. In and among the obvious fallacies of reasoning, it gets boring. For example, how can the US be treating immigrants badly when Australia is worse? Can you see why that's not even worth responding to?

You just keep repeating the same old Fox news talking points, Tiff. In and among the obvious fallacies of reasoning, it gets boring. For example, how can the US be treating immigrants badly when Australia is worse? — Baden

Baden, Fox talking points for you maybe but living in a border state that is burdened with absorbing the costs of illegal immigrants? It is a bit more personal for me.

Can you see why that's not even worth responding to? — Baden

Baden, if you feel I am not worth responding to, then don't respond.

However I fail to see how parlor comments (Maws) about another forum member (me) does anything to further conversation with another forum member (frank) about a topic of a thread.

but living in a border state that is burdened with absorbing the costs of illegal immigrants? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Absolute peanuts compared to the trillions Trump just piled on the national debt to give tax breaks, the vast majority of which will go to the rich and big corporations, and which will have to be paid for by this generation's children. Your priorities are twisted. You give the impression that you'd rather see immigrants treated inhumanely than sacrifice a modest amount of cost while at the same time being happy to support Trump and his cronies stealing your money day in day out. Where's your outrage over the $139,000 that Zinke flushed down the drain to fix a couple of doors in his office, about all the other kickbacks and corruption Trump is engaged in? I don't see it. But when it comes to poor immigrants, suddenly it's close up the purse and save the cents. Why?

Baden, if you feel I am not worth responding to, then don't respond. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I won't respond to stuff that's obviously fallacious and off-topic (this discussion is not about Australia and I bet not one person here would support their awful treatment of immigrants which is indeed worse than the US on the whole, but is obviously also zero excuse for Trump's concentration camps) but that doesn't mean I don't think you're not worth responding to in general.

Maw, your remark about me is amazing considering you were the one that moved me on this issue. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Fair enough, but I only moved you because an actual Holocaust survivor acknowledged parallels to family separation policy and detainment in concentration camps, to the pre-genocidal era of Nazism. Not every Holocaust survivor agrees with this parallel, by the way, I recently watched a video in which a Holocaust survivor denounced such analogies, but I think he is very mistaken.

The point I was making with the Sisyphean task remark, is that you continue to bring up questions or remarks that were answered or explained by articles, or research that I and others have provided across this thread. For example, you ask why there wasn't outrage towards Central American parents who send their children across the border alone (i.e. unaccompanied minors), but I directly shared with you an article about the dire situation in these areas, whether its extreme poverty, or ubiquitous gang violence, or, most likely, a combination. If your son was approached by gangs, or threatened by vicious gangs, or if your daughter was threatened with rape or murder, the logical (though nevertheless difficult) decision is to send them away, because anything would be better than death. That's why there is no "outrage". These parents aren't sending there children away because they want them to abuse our public resources or some nonsense, or come to America just to join MS-13. They are sending them away to escape certain violence and poverty, and to try and find a better life, as any parent is wont to do. The fact that this has been brought up several times but you can't seem to absorb it and learn from it, demonstrates that a lot of what I and others say are falling on deaf ears. Hence the Sisyphean task.

And come on Tiff, you just shared a Breitbart article ffs....

And come on Tiff, you just shared a Breitbart article ffs.... — Maw

This Breibart:

"Breitbart News Network... is a far-right syndicated American news, opinion and commentary.. Its journalists are widely considered to be ideologically driven, and some of its content has been called misogynistic, xenophobic, and racist by liberals and many traditional conservatives alike. The site has published a number of falsehoods, conspiracy theories, and intentionally misleading stories."

Far-right racist publications should be out of bounds for quoting in any debate here, Tiff.

(Although Breitbart is admittedly more of a grey area than Der Stürmer etc.).

Let's give Tiff some credit for standing up for someone so disliked on this forum.

Hurray Tiff!

I have no problem being disliked by stupid people, although I'm quite certain that Tiff does like me.

Not sure what you mean, but I digress.

Oh yeah I totally misread that, but in my defense I've only had a few sips of coffee this morning

Let's give Tiff some credit for standing up for someone so disliked on this forum. — Posty McPostface

Tiff deserves credit for sincerely arguing her case, I'll give her that.

Fair enough, but I only moved you because an actual Holocaust survivor acknowledged parallels to family separation policy and detainment in concentration camps, to the pre-genocidal era of Nazism. Not every Holocaust survivor agrees with this parallel, by the way, I recently watched a video in which a Holocaust survivor denounced such analogies, but I think he is very mistaken. — Maw

You moved me. That was enough for me.

The point I was making with the Sisyphean task remark, is that you continue to bring up questions or remarks that were answered or explained by articles, or research that I and others have provided across this thread. For example, you ask why there wasn't outrage towards Central American parents who send their children across the border alone (i.e. unaccompanied minors), but I directly shared with you an article about the dire situation in these areas, whether its extreme poverty, or ubiquitous gang violence, or, most likely, a combination. If your son was approached by gangs, or threatened by vicious gangs, or if your daughter was threatened with rape or murder, the logical (though nevertheless difficult) decision is to send them away, because anything would be better than death. That's why there is no "outrage". These parents aren't sending there children away because they want them to abuse our public resources or some nonsense, or come to America just to join MS-13. They are sending them away to escape certain violence and poverty, and to try and find a better life, as any parent is wont to do. The fact that this has been brought up several times but you can't seem to absorb it and learn from it, demonstrates that a lot of what I and others say are falling on deaf ears. — Maw

Correct me if I am wrong but if someone is wanting to claim political asylum, they need to present themselves to the country of entry. If my understanding is correct, than any Mexican citizen should be able to present themselves at the USA border, claiming political asylum, which is something we can handle. We can vet or deny and if the latter is the case, they are returned to their country of origin, Mexico, right there, where it CAN be done.

Now, how can someone from Guatemala present themselves claiming political asylum at the USA border? Further more, how can the USA deny asylum and return them to? Mexico? Mexico is the border in which they presented themselves but returning them to Mexico is not returning them home. How are these folks moving through Mexico to the USA without being 'caught'?

Respectively, the new President of Mexico is implementing border police at both the Northern border in which we share and Mexico's southern border with Central America.

AND that development speaks volumes to me. It tells me that we are finally going to have some international cooperation in keeping each countries borders strong. Is it a result of the Trump administrations actions? I don't know yet but time will tell.

Hence the Sisyphean task. — Maw

I understand the reference, I was just shocked at the commentary you were offering frank about me but I respect your honest opinion.

These parents aren't sending there children away because they want them to abuse our public resources or some nonsense, or come to America just to join MS-13. They are sending them away to escape certain violence and poverty, and to try and find a better life, as any parent is wont to do. — Maw

And don't think I don't "get this", I do. I am just not capable of taking care of more when I am barely able to take care of my own. Maybe you are in a position where you can?

Now, how can someone from Guatemala present themselves claiming political asylum at the USA border? Further more, how can the USA deny asylum and return them to? Mexico? Mexico is the border in which they presented themselves but returning them to Mexico is not returning them home. How are these folks moving through Mexico to the USA without being 'caught'? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

To be honest Tiff, the answers to some of these questions are answered in some of the articles I've shared. "How can someone from Guatemala present themselves claiming political asylum?" You submit your claim at a designated point of entry and US officials determine if you have credible fear of returning to your home country. If you are denied asylum, they put you on a plane back to your home country, and this includes Guatemala or any country that you originated from.

zero excuse for Trump's concentration camps — Baden

With all due respect to conservatives, traditionalists, Republicans, etc... I (as a U.S. citizen) may share some of your views, and even many of your feelings. We are united, Left and Right, in the hope that any parallels to 1930’s Germany (avoiding the N-word label here) are most premature and completely unwarranted. And it may be politics as usual, the same old game.

But a well-known quote comes uneasily to mind: (forgive if it has been mentioned already)

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

- Martin Niemöller (1892-1984)

In other words... Who’s next?

It's a good quote and relevant. My use of the term "concentration camps" is not meant as a direct parallel to Nazi Germany though. As I mentioned before, the British are responsible for bringing us concentration camps and not all involve torture and gas chambers. But Trump's cages can be called concentration camps according to the definition of the term:

"Concentration camp, internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment, usually by executive decree or military order. Persons are placed in such camps often on the basis of identification with a particular ethnic or political group rather than as individuals and without benefit either of indictment or fair trial. Concentration camps are to be distinguished from prisons interning persons lawfully convicted of civil crimes and from prisoner-of-war camps in which captured military personnel are held under the laws of war. They are also to be distinguished from refugee camps or detention and relocation centres for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons."

https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-camp

(The reason I think the term "detention centre" is less apt is because of the avowedly punitive intention behind the policy as expressed by Jeff Sessions, for example, on several occasions.)

any parallels to 1930’s Germany (avoiding the N-word label here) are most premature and completely unwarranted. — 0 thru 9

The use of your Niemoller poem contradicts this statement.

To be honest Tiff, the answers to some of these questions are answered in some of the articles I've shared. "How can someone from Guatemala present themselves claiming political asylum?" You submit your claim at a designated point of entry and US officials determine if you have credible fear of returning to your home country. If you are denied asylum, they put you on a plane back to your home country, and this includes Guatemala or any country that you originated from. — Maw

I stand corrected.

Here is a guide on how to get to enter the USA illegally. My expectation is that the new President of Mexico will do his part to keep this page updated or deleted. Again, time will tell.

Please read my post again, if you don’t mind. And forgive me if I was not completely clear the first time. To emphasize:

I HOPE and PRAY that any parallels to Nazi Germany are incorrect, wrong, and baseless.
I FEAR that they are not.

(In these kinds of statements about these kinds of issues every word and letter is critical, it seems. It feels like driving in a traffic jam during a blizzard while on the phone. But anyway... :wink: )

Thank you. :victory:

Ah, well you didn't say "I fear they are not" in your original post, but that does help clarify it.

It's not the same, even Madeleine Albright wouldn't go that far.