If something terrifying appears, go towards it. — praxis

Easy to say! I never really knew what 'terrifying' meant until I experienced hallucinogens!

I'd love to try a Vipassana retreat one day! I have participated in less rigorous retreats and workshops.

I have to constantly work not to fall back into middle-aged, middle-class torpor. Coming to think of it, much harder than I'm currently working. :sad: — Wayfarer

I think we all face that situation, especially as we grow older. I'm somewhat lucky, I guess, as I've always been self-employed in landscaping; very physical work. Lately, as I am working less, I am walking and going to the gym more. It all starts with the body, I tend to think (well, it's really the bodymind).

I'm just parroting advice. :smile:

I wonder what @unenlightened has to say about this, as he was a seasoned tripper. I bet he still trips sometimes when everyone is not watching. :lol:

I have struck up a relationship with a bona-fide Zen teacher on DharmaWheel - hoping one day to participate in a sesshin [intensive retreat] at his centre in Wisconsin - as it happens, only ninety minutes from where my son has settled.

Sounds like a really good opportunity!

Well, no matter how "seasoned" he is, he better have someone watching!

Nah, man he's mentally bulletproof. Sagelike qualities.

That just made me laugh! :rofl:

I saw a really nice looking belt in a shop once and when I looked at the label it read: "Genuine Leatherlon". I guess it was made from a material that had somewhat leatherlike qualities.

Genuine sagelon, anyone? That's all you'll be gettin' in the matrix, anyhow...

Meido is the real deal. And the new facility looks very nice.

I drove out there with my younger son last September and met him. He was very friendly and welcoming. Hoping to go back. Possibly this year, if the chips fall right.

Well, no matter how "seasoned" he is, he better have someone watching! — Janus

Back in the day, we always had someone on acid to mind us while we were straight, because while a tripper might leap of the roof thinking he can fly, only straights start wars.

And that's it really, most of us are so fucked up that a bit of brain scrambling is actually an improvement. But for myself, I discovered a long time ago now that if you take the acid test, you fail. So I now maintain my lunacy unassisted.

But for myself, I discovered a long time ago now that if you take the acid test, you fail. — unenlightened

Yeah, well, I think we are all different as much as we are similar, I usually found that after an initial bout with terror, I usually came through...but then I always inevitably (and you might say, unfortunately) came down as well, but I'm interested to know what that failure looks like for you.

I'm interested to know what that failure looks like for you. — Janus

Well without getting too woo about it, one can benefit from escaping from one's habits of mind, but there's no point in making a habit of it. I think it is usually the loss of the habitual that is terrifying - the uptight are always controlling their anxiety with ritual that they identify with. But the odd thing about such drugs is that the loss of control is also largely an illusion, you're far more capable and in control on acid than alcohol, in terms of driving for instance though the sensation is the opposite. Also sex... I wonder what the consent issues are these days?

It might make more sense if you read what I say properly. I didn't deny that it's supposed to be personal, I said that you're making it too personal. There's a difference. It's personal for each of us, but you made it too personal with your talk of finding a partner, fighting injustice, and so on, as if that's what it's all about, rather than that being what it's all about for you, personally. — Sapientia

What I was attempting to convey is that we form meaning through love and our virtues - such as righteousness - and it is a natural part of the human condition to desire happiness. Cypher did not experience love and so turned to hedonism as a last resort, but I doubt he would have wanted to return back to the Matrix if the love was reciprocated, clearly by his determination that he forgets everything. Finding real love and being able to be charitable and fight injustice enables meaning that we create and gives us purpose, so it is not being too personal here. It is really a part of our human nature. The difference is Cypher chose something false or unreal whereas Neo didn't. It is just about the authenticity of our motives.

Well without getting too woo about it, one can benefit from escaping from one's habits of mind, but there's no point in making a habit of it. I think it is usually the loss of the habitual that is terrifying - the uptight are always controlling their anxiety with ritual that they identify with. But the odd thing about such drugs is that the loss of control is also largely an illusion, you're far more capable and in control on acid than alcohol, in terms of driving for instance though the sensation is the opposite. Also sex... I wonder what the consent issues are these days? — unenlightened

How would you go about "getting too woo about it"?

I agree you can benefit from losing mental habits, but I can't see how you could make a habit out of it. I have to say I found hallucinogens to be the least habit-forming drugs I ever encountered.

I'd say you're right that we (the uptight) control our anxieties through establishing rituals and routines, physical, mental and emotional; that pretty much summarizes the human condition. This constitutes the familiar for us, and it is the loss of the familiar that can be terrifying. It can also be exhilarating, even enlightening.

It's funny you mention driving while on acid. That was one of my favourite activities when i was young and stupid. You are certainly right that one's control is generally much greater when tripping than it is when pissed. Similarly for amphetamines, I would say; obviously a lot of professional drivers use them. Some amphetamines (mescaline, MDMA) do have very similar effects to the tryptamines (LSD, DMT and psilocybin) The dangers with any of them come when the hallucinations get out of control!

And sex! Yeah, now that is incredible when tripping (with the right person, of course). I'm not sure what you are alluding to with "consent issues", though.

From what I understand, psychedelics leave a person more susceptible to suggest, a conditional that a sexual predator could take advantage of. Allegedly, the underground community of ‘guides’ has an code of ethics that excludes sexual contact.

From what I understand, psychedelics leave a person more susceptible to suggest, a conditional that a sexual predator could take advantage of. — praxis

I guess that might be true for some, it certainly hasn't been my experience; I seem, if anything, to be more sure of my feelings towards others when I am entheogenerated! (Oh, look, a neologism!)

I seem, if anything, to be more sure of my feelings towards others when I am entheogenerated! — Janus

Trippers typically report stronger or renewed meaning for things that might ordinarily seem trite or banal. This phenomenon might only add weight to calculated manipulation while in a state of high suggestibility.

I probably sound paranoid. :scream:

Noooo, you're not allowed to be paranoid. :fear:

It's possible I guess, I don't know. Certainly what ordinarily might appear banal may be imbued with (sometimes profound and novel) meaning. My own and other's masks always seemed (sometimes painfully) revealed to me when in the experience, and so I would consequently be wary of, and resistant to, even my own thoughts, let alone the suggestions of others. Not saying my experience is universal, or even typical, though.

According to my experience. you come through the 'hell' stage when you can allow all thoughts to drop away, and see things with perfect clarity. What it is that you see seems to be impossible to verbalize; so perhaps it is really a powerful affect rather than consisting in any kind of discursive or rational thought. I would say that in that state I am anything but suggestible, though, since I am not listening to any thoughts at all; in that heightened state all discursive kinds of thoughts seem so terribly banal.

That is not to say that others cannot say things that seem profoundly right, though; but I don't believe I could be hoodwinked into doing anything that didn't seem profoundly right in the moment. I am quite confident that if someone was a sexual predator, that would be transparently obvious to a heightened consciousness. Maybe someone could be manipulated while they were in the fear stage, I guess; but in my own case I would not trust anyone, least of all myself, when in that state.

Allegedly, the underground community of ‘guides’ has an code of ethics that excludes sexual contact. — praxis

Never trip with sexual predators, never trip with anyone who imagines they are part of an underground community of guides (that's the woo, right there), and never trip whilst paranoid. A trusted friend is who you need - accept no substitutes.

It can also be exhilarating, even enlightening. — Janus

Is that not a delusion onto itself?

*looks at the horse*

Is that not a delusion onto itself? — Posty McPostface

Technically no, the delusion being a separate self.

I agree with most of what you say here. my only question concerns what you say about "underground guides"; is imagining you could be a guide on account of your extensive experience different in this connection than in any other sphere of life? Is it any more "woo", for example, than imagining you are a psychotherapist, or imagining simply that you can offer advice based on experience, as you presumably have? The "underground" part might sound woolike to the skeptical mind, but we are talking about illegal activities.

I don't know what you mean. Explain?

Maybe choice 1 is the dreamworld. While I am technically asleep in my bed I usually have no perceptual thought arising informing the "dreamer" I am dreaming.

Isn't this also the case in so called "real life"?

Had an experience with ‘edibles’ yesterday. My, it’s been a long time. Anyway, was engaged in the most mundane of activities, assisting someone moving house. I was listening to iTunes, standing in the vacant lounge-room of the new premisses, holding a carton, when it kicked in. Very subtle. But just then, this absolutely superb composition started in iTunes - something I’ve had for a long time, never heard or noticed it before. And I just went into a really superb inner space. This music evoked in me an intuition of the most exquisite woman, indescribably beautiful and elegant. And also of being in a place of complete harmony and beauty, refinement and ease. Like an intuition of another, completely different kind of life. I was just for a moment, feeling that presence. I feel it was the intuition of Sophia. At that moment - this is what it has all been about, all along.

Of course, what goes up, must come down. Today, life just goes on, there’s a ton of stuff needs doing. But for a moment there...

//ps - icons of the goddess, Prajñāpāramitā, the Oriental counterpart of Sophia.

Yeah, I love those visionary moments. :cool: