It looks like you are saying that the goods of life are only had at the expense of the possibility of something very bad. Is that the main idea? I know that sounds simplistic, but that's all I can get when I put the main points together. But maybe I am not getting the idea of conditional goods and absolute bads here. — schopenhauer1

That torturous pain, an unconditional evil, — darthbarracuda

how barbaric, childish and empty bourgeoisie entertainment seems when the reality of extreme suffering is understood — darthbarracuda

What goes on in the animal kingdom isn't barbaric -- it is life. — Bitter Crank

antelope being hunted for sport — darthbarracuda

But I made sure to label the pain I am concerned with as "torturous" pain. — darthbarracuda

I find it impossible to not see something like, say, the Holocaust, or an antelope being hunted for sport, as anything but evil. — darthbarracuda

if's, and's, or but's — darthbarracuda

There is, has been and will be experiences of (physical) pain of such unimaginable torture that, prima facie, it seems as though they are irredeemable — darthbarracuda

A world that depends on a history riddled with loose ends and unredeemed injustices cannot ever be a truly good world. — darthbarracuda

if's, and's, or but's — darthbarracuda

Dick comment, but you don't need the apostrophes here. :razz: — Thorongil

But doesn't that shift the "evil" to whatever it is that makes escape impossible. So it is not the pain as such. It is the torturer - and the degree to which you would assign moral agency to that entity. — apokrisis

Can we do something about Holocausts and antelope being hunted for sport? Of course. So is the evil an irredeemable aspect of existence itself? You are not showing that. — apokrisis

This is what I'm complaining about. You don't seem prepared to make a proper argument. You talk about the effect as if it has no cause - no reasons. You attempt to close down a proper discussion by calling the pain itself an irredeemable evil. And then from that faulty premise, you will draw the familiar anti-natalist truths. — apokrisis

Prima facie? Sure, but I'm not willing to go as far as to say that they are unredeemable. How could one possibly know that? — Thorongil

Good in what sense? I'm sure you're aware of the long Platonic tradition that equates being with goodness, so that inasmuch as something merely exists, it is good. — Thorongil

If we honestly did believe God, say, would "make everything right", we might have far less motivation to do anything about torturous pain because the deity would redeem it in the end. — darthbarracuda

the Platonic notion of the good was that it transcends Being — darthbarracuda

How am I do understand the existence of torturous pain as a "good" thing, when by all accounts it seems to me to be a purely bad thing? — darthbarracuda

Again, pain on the Platonic account would be a privation of some good thing, like health. Pain is the lack of a good that otherwise would exist. — Thorongil

I do not understand how we are to identify being with goodness with Being, yet acknowledge the existence of evil. If goodness is lacking somewhere, what is there? — darthbarracuda

The pain and tension deep in the core and centre of my being was so great that I felt as might some creature which had outgrown its shell, and yet could not escape. What it was I knew not, except that it was a great yearning—for freedom, for larger life—for deeper love. There seemed to be no response in nature to that infinite need. The great tide swept on uncaring, pitiless, and strength gone, every resource exhausted, nothing remained but submission. So I said: There must be a reason for it, a purpose in it, even if I cannot grasp it. The Power in whose hands I am may do with me as it will! It was several days after this resolve before the point of complete surrender was reached. Meantime, with every internal sense, I searched for that principle, whatever it was, which would hold me when I let go.

At last, subdued, with a curious, growing strength in my weakness, I let go of myself! * In a short time, to my surprise, I began to feel a sense of physical comfort, of rest, as if some strain or tension was removed. Never before had I experienced such a feeling of perfect health. I wondered at it. And how bright and beautiful the day! I looked out at the sky, the hills and the river, amazed that I had never before realized how divinely beautiful the world was! The sense of lightness and expansion kept increasing, the wrinkles smoothed out of everything, there was nothing in all the world that seemed out of place. At dinner I remarked: "How strangely happy I am to-day!" If I had realized then, as I did afterwards, what a great thing was happening to me, I should doubtless have dropped my work and given myself up to the contemplation of it, but it seemed so simple and natural (with all the wonder of it) that I and my affairs went on as usual. The light and color glowed, the atmosphere seemed to quiver and vibrate around and within me. Perfect rest and peace and joy were everywhere, and, more strange than all, there came to me a sense as of some serene, magnetic presence grand and all pervading. The life and joy within me were becoming so intense that by evening I became restless and wandered about the rooms, scarcely knowing what to do with myself. Retiring early that I might be alone, soon all objective phenomena were shut out. I was seeing and comprehending the sublime meaning of things, the reasons for all that had before been hidden and dark. The great truth that life is a spiritual evolution, that this life is but a passing phase in the soul's progression, burst upon my astonished vision with overwhelming grandeur. Oh, I thought, if this is what it means, if this is the outcome, then pain is sublime! Welcome centuries, eons, of suffering if it brings us to this! And still the splendor increased. Presently what seemed to be a swift, oncoming tidal wave of splendor and glory ineffable came down upon me, and I felt myself being enveloped, swallowed up.

I felt myself going, losing myself. Then I was terrified, but with a sweet terror. I was losing my consciousness, my identity, but was powerless to hold myself. Now came a period of rapture, so intense that the universe stood still, as if amazed at the unutterable majesty of the spectacle! Only one in all the infinite universe! The All-loving, the Perfect One! The Perfect Wisdom, truth, love and purity! And with the rapture came the insight. In that same wonderful moment of what might be called supernal bliss, came illumination. I saw with intense inward vision the atoms or molecules, of which seemingly the universe is composed—I know not whether material or spiritual—rearranging themselves, as the cosmos (in its continuous, everlasting life) passes from order to order.* What joy when I saw there was no break in the chain—not a link left out—everything in its place and time. Worlds, systems, all blended in one harmonious whole. Universa life, synonymous with universal love!

It was in December, three months after, that I saw my sister for the first time after the experience described, and her changed appearance made such a deep impression on me that I shall never forget it. Her looks and manner were so changed that she scarcely seemed the same person. There was a clear, bright, peaceful light in her eyes, lighting her whole face, and she was so happy and contented—so satisfied with things as they were. It seemed as though some heavy weight had been lifted and she was free. As she talked to me I felt that she was living in a new world of thought and feeling unknown to me. Sincerely, P. M.