You want some help understanding one of the most important mathematical results of C21? — tom
So, you're not really interested are you. — tom
The only Law of Physics that I know of is Quanum Mechanics and it would take a great myth maker to interpret QM into superdetermiminism. In fact, it would take an act of your faith. — Rich
I was agreeing with you and addressing tom. I feel like that was made perfectly clear. — JustSomeGuy
The Copenhagen Interpretation is entirely compatible with Superdeterminism. — tom
And you have the audacity to complain about "snottiness"?
Allow me to rephrase:
You misunderstand quantum mechanics and metaphysics. — tom
Everything is compatible with Super-Duper-Determinism. God is all powerful. — Rich
Let's give some credit to those of religious faith. At least they are aware enough of their faith that they don't deny it. Determinists are swimming in their own admitted illusions. — Rich
What the heck does GTR have to do with Super-Duper-Determinism?? — Rich
It is not even compatible with QM... — Rich
but I could say that this discussion caused the idea of poking myself. — CasKev
I could say my intent to poke myself caused me to pick up the pin. — CasKev
I can definitely say that the pressing of the pin's point into my arm caused a pain signal to reach my brain! — CasKev
There is no gap to be filled, other than the fraction of time it takes for the signal to reach the brain and be interpreted. — CasKev
What you could do is demonstrate that the laws of physics are not deterministic. — tom
According to GR we inhabit a stationary block space-time. This is as super-duper-deterministic as you can get. — tom
In what way is GR not compatible with QM? — tom
It says no such thing. It's a simple equation. The rest of the story is just made up. In fact, there isn't even time in the equation. It is all about time as expressed in clocks and how acceleration affects then. There is nothing there about human experience of duration. Humans are not clocks. — Rich
Google it. — Rich
Sorry, but GR predicts many things like, the big-bang, time dilation, gravitational waves, and that we inhabit a stationary block universe. — tom
The Big Bang thing is just Genesis and GTR makes no such prediction. It only concerns itself with measurements by clocks. As it turns out clocks are affected by gravity as are photons. I'm not surprised. So are waves in the ocean.
I love it when Determinists have to defend their faith. You figure all you have to do is throw out you God (Super-Duper-Determinatism) and people are going to fall over trying to be converted? Truly bathing in their own self-admitted illusions. You are living a life of illusions right? — Rich
when two things are connected it means they lead directly to one another with no space in between. I'm saying literally everything in nature is interconnected so that there is no space in between anything. — JustSomeGuy
No I'm not. "Necessarily interconnected" means they cannot be disconnected. Everything is dependent on everything else, nothing can be isolated from the rest... — JustSomeGuy
With the kind of causation I'm talking about, there are no gaps between events..." — JustSomeGuy
There is space between chain links, yet they are connected.
And we are talking about events, happenings, occurrences, etc., not about objects. That means we are talking about gaps in and/or between events, happenings, occurrences, not space between objects. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Something could have, for example, been spontaneously generated. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
If we can't isolate two things then we can't say that one caused the other. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
If there are no gaps between events, how can one be an antecedent cause of another? — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Did you empirically sense through sight, smell, sound, taste and/or touch the act of one causing the other? Or did you only empirically sense two different occurrences and then add something non-empirical--the act of causing--with your imagination? — WISDOMfromPO-MO
If there is no gap to be filled then why do you bring an act of causation into it? — WISDOMfromPO-MO
That doesn't mean the idea that there are no causes is wrong. That might make sense in some situations also. As I said, I get it and I think it can be useful. — T Clark
Your initial statement is rendered irrelevant by the proceeding paragraph, so I'm not sure why you included it. — JustSomeGuy
Give me a real-world example of this; an event occurring spontaneously, without cause. The only time this could possibly have happened was the universe coming into existence. — JustSomeGuy
When I consume food, my hunger is satiated. Whether you believe these are actually two separate events or not is irrelevant. This is a clear, demonstrable case of cause and effect. And there are no gaps between them. One leads directly to the other through various biological and physiological processes and reactions.
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. — JustSomeGuy
Chain links are objects, not events. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
It sounds tautological, or something like that. It sounds like "This effect was caused by that cause because effects are caused by causes". — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Neuroscience of free will, to me implies we really don't have free will.
"One significant finding of modern studies is that a person's brain seems to commit to certain decisions before the person becomes aware of having made them. With contemporary brain scanning technology, other scientists in 2008 were able to predict with 60% accuracy whether subjects would press a button with their left or right hand up to 10 seconds before the subject became aware of having made that choice."
Our premotor cortex moves our bodies before we are even have made the decision to move. I very much think we have an illusion of free will. — FlukeKid
Our premotor cortex moves our bodies before we are even have made the decision to move. I very much think we have an illusion of free will. — FlukeKid
The subjects were asked to relax while fixating on the center of the screen where a stream of letters was presented. At some point, when they felt the urge to do so, they were to freely decide between one of two buttons, operated by the left and right index fingers, and press it immediately. In parallel, they should remember the letter presented when their motor decision was consciously made
The temporal ordering of information suggests a tentative causal model of information flow, where the earliest unconscious precursors of the motor decision originated in frontopolar cortex, from where they influenced the buildup of decision-related information in the precuneus and later in SMA, where it remained unconscious for up to a few seconds.
This substantially extends previous work that has shown that BA10 is involved in storage of conscious action plans9–11 and shifts in strategy following negative feedback12. Thus, a network of high-level control areas can begin to shape an upcoming decision long before it enters awareness.
The decisions the skier makes are based on what his body understands, its training, its memory, the same habitual movements. I think the phenomena you are referring to is similar. It does not impinge on the notion of an existential will, in my opinion. — Cavacava
Also attention - that limited high level resource - did have a specific job to do. It needed to note the particular letter in a flow of letters that happened to coincide with the emergence of the urge. So attention was kept out of the button choice as much as possible by the experiment's design. — apokrisis
so we will never know is the easiest answer, not in anyway feckless.And how will we ever know? — Abdul
why does he need to know? maybe he can but is he supposed to watch you all around? More probable is if he accidentally follows you, then probably he knows how your will and actions are being laid out, not strictly before or after. What changes would that suggest to the whole dispute then?God knows what you are going to choose — Abdul
As far as these experiments tell us anything about free will, they really should be seen as part of a continuum of study on the neurological markers of decision making processes, rather then in isolation. — Pseudonym
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