• T Clark
    3k
    In astronomic terms nothing we shall ever do will have a noticeable effect, so nothing matters.charleton

    The verb "matter" is a human concept. For that reason, it is most applicable to events affecting humans. Whether or not we are pimples on the ass of microbes living for microseconds on a small planet about to crash into its star in one of an infinite number of multiverses is irrelevant.
  • T Clark
    3k
    According to physics, the answer is YES!

    I don't particularly like the flavour of quantum mechanics that the Free Will and the Strong Free Will Theorems are expressed in, but Kochen and Conway explicitely cover this. The freedom they claim to have identified is not a function of the past.
    tom

    As I said in one of my other posts, conflating causal issues related to QM with causal issues that are metaphysical and have been around for thousands of years shows a misunderstanding of both science and metaphysics.
  • T Clark
    3k
    There is no way to make sense of Determinism. It was simply a story made up hundreds of years ago when some scientist/atheists hoped that they could control the whole universe with Newton's Laws (never considering that under determinism there is nothing to control).Rich

    You always seem to want to describe scientific thought as the result of a conspiracy. It undermines your argument, some of which I agree with all of the time and all of which I agree with some of the time.
  • Rich
    3.2k
    It's as much of a conspiracy as any religion. People of like faith get together to worship the Supreme and there is always someone to pass the plate. If one really wants to understand the nature of religion, study Determinism and its evangelists.
  • tom
    1.5k
    Certain theories in Quantum Mechanics claim that there is randomness, but randomness isn't the same "freedom". Or are you referring to something other than randomness that I'm not aware of?JustSomeGuy

    Actually, most QM theories don't claim randomness. As far as I'm aware, only GRW does.

    As I think I mentioned, The Free Will theorem considers actions to be free if they are not a function of the past. This is different from randomness.

    Anyway, QM makes it clear, you can't have determinism and causality, unless you dispense with collapse, and and accept the wavefunction corresponds to a feature of reality.
  • tom
    1.5k
    As I said in one of my other posts, conflating causal issues related to QM with causal issues that are metaphysical and have been around for thousands of years shows a misunderstanding of both science and metaphysics.T Clark

    I forgot, you are the only one who understands these things,

    But for the rest of us, particularly if you read the works of J.S. Bell and others, perhaps a few well known philosophers of physics like David Wallace, and even the recent papers by 't Hooft (for the unaware, he's the Nobel Prize winning "father of the Standard Model") on superdeterminism, you will find they are the same thing.
  • tom
    1.5k
    It's as much of a conspiracy as any religion. People of like faith get together to worship the Supreme and there is always someone to pass the plate. If one really wants to understand the nature of religion, study Determinism and its evangelists.Rich

    It is funny that you should mention the "conspiracy" because Reality is indeed a conspiracy under determinism.

    J.S. Bell coined the term "Superdeterminism" to describe the sort of determinism that must exist in the light of quantum entanglement. Under questioning in an interview he admitted that superdeterminism was no different from what philosophers call determinism.

    Sadly, Bell could not anticipate the fact that he would be undermined by devastating critiques such as:

    As I said in one of my other posts, conflating causal issues related to QM with causal issues that are metaphysical and have been around for thousands of years shows a misunderstanding of both science and metaphysics.T Clark
  • T Clark
    3k
    I forgot, you are the only one who understands these things,tom

    Why the snot?

    Why would a physicist be good source for information on metaphysics? Most of them deny the value of philosophy. There are a lot of scientists out there with some pretty goofy ideas when they get out of their area of expertise. I'm with Emerson:

    To believe your own thought, to believe that what is true for you in your private heart is true for all men,— that is genius. Speak your latent conviction, and it shall be the universal sense; for always the inmost becomes the outmost—and our first thought is rendered back to us by the trumpets of the Last Judgment.

    When he says "genius" he doesn't mean like "Einstein is a genius." He uses the term to mean sort of your essence, mind.

    You should make your own argument, not just depend on what others have said who agree with you. There are a lot out there who disagree too.
  • T Clark
    3k
    Sadly, Bell could not anticipate the fact that he would be undermined by devastating critiques such as:tom

    Snottiness may be an effective rhetorical device in some situations, but it is not reason and it is not a valid response to a serious argument, even if you disagree with it. Grow up and be a philosopher.
  • JustSomeGuy
    307
    The Free Will theorem considers actions to be free if they are not a function of the past.tom

    What exactly does it mean for something not to be a function of the past?
  • Rich
    3.2k
    As with any religion Determinists believe that the Laws of Nature are unlimited in their power to do things in ways mortals cannot comprehend.

    Determinists exhibit as much faith and dogma as the most fanatical of any religious and by degrading humanity have enabled some of the worst holocausts.
  • JustSomeGuy
    307
    Grow up and be a philosopher.T Clark

    I have to second this, @tom, you're displaying a very juvenile attitude with the tone of some of your comments. Being a smartass is extremely detrimental to intelligent conversation.
  • JustSomeGuy
    307

    I keep seeing you say the same things over and over again in discussions about determinism and free will, but I still have yet to see any actual argument provided in support of your assertions.

    Try to convince me that your position is valid using reason. Provide a logical argument instead of conjecture.
  • T Clark
    3k
    I have to second this, tom, you're displaying a very juvenile attitude with the tone of some of your comments. Being a smartass is extremely detrimental to intelligent conversation.JustSomeGuy

    I have been very serious in my posts. I mean what I say. Can you point out a comment I made, other than those about @tom's snottyness, that is juvenile or which constitutes being a smartass. I stand behind my characterization of his posts to me as "snotty."
  • JustSomeGuy
    307


    I was agreeing with you and addressing tom. I feel like that was made perfectly clear.
  • tom
    1.5k
    As with any religion Determinists believe that the Laws of Nature are unlimited in their power to do things in ways mortals cannot comprehend.Rich

    Superdeterminism is not a religion. It is a consequence of the laws of physics being interpreted in a certain way. But you are right about the inability to comprehend bit. In fact it is worse than that: Reality IS a conspiracy!
  • Rich
    3.2k
    That Determinism is a religion? I described it in very simple terms without obfuscation. But as with any religion, lacking any evidence whatsoever, Determinists believe in their Truth. That is the nature of religion. Dogmatic faith.
  • tom
    1.5k
    As I said in one of my other posts, conflating causal issues related to QM with causal issues that are metaphysical and have been around for thousands of years shows a misunderstanding of both science and metaphysics.T Clark

    And you have the audacity to complain about "snottiness"?

    Allow me to rephrase:

    You misunderstand quantum mechanics and metaphysics.

    Better?
  • Rich
    3.2k
    consequence of the laws of physics being interpretedtom

    The only Law of Physics that I know of is Quanum Mechanics and it would take a great myth maker to interpret QM into superdetermiminism. In fact, it would take an act of your faith.
  • tom
    1.5k
    What exactly does it mean for something not to be a function of the past?JustSomeGuy

    You want some help understanding one of the most important mathematical results of C21?

    I have to second this, tom, you're displaying a very juvenile attitude with the tone of some of your comments. Being a smartass is extremely detrimental to intelligent conversation.JustSomeGuy

    So, you're not really interested are you.
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.