jamal, I hope you're not so naive as to believe that most of the mods would not love to get rid of me as they would Agustino. — Thorongil

I wouldn't.

she is a good thinker, a good writer, and shows good judgement. — jamalrob

Funny, especially the judgement part.

If you think that she didn't follow the guidelines, then you should have flagged it. You can still do so. Moderators are subject to the same guidelines as regular members. — Sapientia

Right. If the North Korean people don't like Kim Jong Un they should go vote. It says it's a democratic people's republic afterall, so it must be true. It's sad to see you defending the status quo, I thought better of you. You do lack class consciousness in this regard.

we thought that Timeline would make a good moderator based on her qualities and behaviour. — Sapientia

>:O, sorry, I can have no other reaction.

Stop can kicking and tell us why we conspired to bring her aboard. — Hanover

Because of your friendly alliance with her and shared mutual interests, that's why. She agrees with the whole host of POMO ruling beliefs, she hates Agustino and other conservative posters and will continue the status quo.

And you should stop being so belligerent because we both know that the only reason you're a mod is because you publicly expressed a desire to see me banned (in other words, you were doing what you do best, being a servant to those in power and kissing butt while trying to step over everyone who is underneath you)

I must say, this does come as a surprise considering that I thought I was fantastic.

But, jokes aside, Thorongil, I hear you and appreciate your feedback and I would like to publicly acknowledge why you felt it wrong to have me on the mod team particularly relating to the comment. I retract it accordingly and apologies for any offence that you have taken to it, it was rhetorically cruel and it stemmed from an anger that I felt at the time towards the judgement and accusations being made against women who protested for feminism. If there are other concerns relating to any of my posts to you, please both past and future, flag them either with me or to others and we will proceed from there. — TimeLine

Sorry, yes I am at work and only just had my lunch break. I am glad you accepted my apology because I do feel bad; I tend to make jokes in the "Shoutbox" thread that are more or less intended to provoke in some way and should recognise the differences in what some would constitute as humour. I respect you enough to acknowledge that. While my posts in many other threads probably reflect more of who I am, I will attempt to convey a bit more decorum. It is something I should learn nevertheless being a tad bit too emotional for my taste for certain subjects. If anything, my editing would probably be more or less the PhiSci stuff. — TimeLine

So by her own admission, TimeLine is incapable to control her anger, is impulsive, and takes decisions she later regrets. That's what you @jamalrob, @Baden, etc. like to see in a fellow mod yes? It should come as no surprise remembering how impulsive @Baden showed himself to be when banning Emptyheady or warning @Buxtebuddha, @Thorongil and myself about sexism, based on nothing, no evidence whatsoever.

But I forgot to add the most important piece of the puzzle. TimeLine is easily the most manipulative poster to have graced this forum. She will change her colors as she has to in order to obtain what she wants. She wants to stop this discussion and keep her mod position. So she will apologise and do whatever it takes to achieve that aim. But don't be deceived - be very VERY careful.

This is not an indication she will change now that she already has the power. She couldn't control herself before, what makes you think she can control herself now? This is all a farce set up to deceive you. We have many decent women on these boards who are not given modship. Tiff or Lone Wolf come to mind. So if the moderators really want a female, they could certainly pick a reasonable choice.

That said, yall should be warned against romanticizing what a modship entails - it's essentially forum janitorial work, and frankly the less one has to speak or act in the capacity of a mod, the better. — StreetlightX

Good, so why don't you give it up then? Multiple people have asked for your resignation already. And if it's such slimy janitorial work, I'd like to see you give it up - it should also be in your interests, so what are you waiting for?

making Agustino a mod — Thorongil

Agustino should be a moderator. :D — Lone Wolf

Pff - you'll never see them make Agustino a mod, are you kidding me? >:O

Thank you for your support and confidence, I really appreciate it. As for wanting to be a mod. I have already said in the past that I do not want to be a mod. However, if you and many others think that I can fulfil your interests - the public's interests - in that position, and that I can balance the power in this community to represent you and not private interests of a small clique then I will gladly accept it. Though my acceptance itself is useless. The mods do not want Agustino there. The fact that there are no "spaces" left is a petty excuse - spaces can always be made. The thing with me is that I cannot be controlled - I cannot be a puppet, so I cannot represent the interests of a small clique.

Good god, dude. I've had some spates with the mods, and with TimeLine, and with yourself, and I can honestly say that I'm just about as much phased by any of you as I am by anyone else. Keep puffing out those cheeks, and you'll have plenty of lung capacity to out-post us all in perpetuity.

decorum — TimeLine

:-O Copycat.

Because of your friendly alliance with her and shared mutual interests, that's why. She agrees with the whole host of POMO ruling beliefs, she hates Agustino and other conservative posters and will continue the status quo. — Agustino

I suspect mods don't get worked up much about any conservative poster to the point that they'd feel hatred towards them. In my view, the mods are on average more progressive than our more vocal conservative members but then you, Thorongil and Hanover are the outliers here that don't really represent the average member. I suppose SSU is another conservative but not that vocal about it, other than that other conservative posters do not come to mind. One conservative in the mod team therefore seems a sensible reflection of the membership population.

Mods are active on the boards and then it is likely that they will participate in discussions more often than most members; so they have a relatively high visibility compared to others. Running into them at different ends on any discussion becomes statistically more probable as a result as well.

In other words, I think this is a lot about perception and not about actual facts.

So, do you really feel hated or despised or was that an exaggeration? If the former, I think there's something the mod team could engage as I think it's neither intended nor wanted (I'm assuming nobody is in here going out of their way trying to make other people feel bad).

And you should stop being so belligerent because we both know that the only reason you're a mod is because you publicly expressed a desire to see me banned (in other words, you were doing what you do best, being a servant to those in power and kissing butt while trying to step over everyone who is underneath you) — Agustino

He was a mod before you were a member.

So by her own admission, TimeLine is incapable to control her anger, is impulsive, and takes decisions she later regrets. That's what you jamalrob, @Baden, etc. like to see in a fellow mod yes? It should come as no surprise remembering how impulsive @Baden showed himself to be when banning Emptyheady or warning @Buxtebuddha, @Thorongil and myself about sexism, based on nothing, no evidence whatsoever.

But I forgot to add the most important piece of the puzzle. TimeLine is easily the most manipulative poster to have graced this forum. She will change her colors as she has to in order to obtain what she wants. She wants to stop this discussion and keep her mod position. So she will apologise and do whatever it takes to achieve that aim. But don't be deceived - be very VERY careful. — Agustino

This is mostly conjecture. Suffice is to say you can flag her posts and decisions. Generally though (as a former mod myself) most serious decisions are run by a few other moderators before they are made definitive. There's an informal checks and balance there that by and large works.

Also, it's still human work so there are bound to be inconsistencies. Nobody's perfect. So far, I don't think egregious mistakes have been made that warrant this thread.

This is not an indication she will change now that she already has the power. She couldn't control herself before, what makes you think she can control herself now? This is all a farce set up to deceive you. We have many decent women on these boards who are not given modship. Tiff or Lone Wolf come to mind. So if the moderators really want a female, they could certainly pick a reasonable choice.

Although I love Tiff to death, she's too nice to be a mod. Lone Wolf could be an option but I can't really say as I don't recall any of her posts.

He was a mod before you were a member. — Benkei

Hanover? I don't think so. He wasn't a mod at the old place. And he wasn't a mod here before I was a member.

Hanover? I don't think so. He wasn't a mod at the old place. And he wasn't a mod here before I was a member. — Agustino

Really? Well, I must have it backward in my memory then. I thought he was a moderator before I remember you becoming active here. Did you lurk more before?

Really? Well, I must have it backward in my memory then. I thought he was a moderator before I remember you becoming active here. Did you lurk more before? — Benkei

No, he was made a mod right after he said he'd like to see me banned in one discussion, and that he would have done it were he a mod. Not right after, but soon after, in about a month. I was surprised to see him made a mod. He wasn't one of the original mods, he was however an editor.

No, he was made a mod right after he said he'd like to see me banned in one discussion, and that he would have done it were he a mod. Not right after, but soon after, in about a month. I was surprised to see him made a mod. He wasn't one of the original mods, he was however an editor. — Agustino

Fair enough. Still, don't you think it's unlikely his willingness to ban you was a factor considering you're still here? ;)

Fair enough. Still, don't you think it's unlikely his willingness to ban you was a factor considering you're still here? ;) — Benkei

Well it's obvious that he cannot take that decision himself (but he has made it clear which way he wants to go). No doubt that there are reasonable mods in the team, I don't have issues with all mods. But some of them, perhaps a majority now, are definitely questionable in my eyes. For example, I think people like SLX, Hanover and TimeLine are clearly biased, don't keep a cool head and really do not make great mods. I'd go as far as saying that SLX and TimeLine especially are a danger to the diversity of this community. Hanover tends to get stuck on certain people (like myself in this case), but he hasn't shown dangerous ideological and unquestioned presumptions like the other two I've mentioned.

Thank you for your support and confidence, I really appreciate it. As for wanting to be a mod. I have already said in the past that I do not want to be a mod. However, if you and many others think that I can fulfil your interests - the public's interests - in that position, and that I can balance the power in this community to represent you and not private interests of a small clique then I will gladly accept it. Though my acceptance itself is useless. The mods do not want Agustino there. The fact that there are no "spaces" left is a petty excuse - spaces can always be made. The thing with me is that I cannot be controlled - I cannot be a puppet, so I cannot represent the interests of a small clique. — Agustino

I think it would be good if you became a moderator. It might not work, but it would be interesting. You can be intemporate, but the same can be said for TimeLine.

Although I love Tiff to death, she's too nice — Benkei

Thank you for your love dear friend, as I treasure that more than any moderator position, as goes with many of my fellow forum members that I call friends. However I must admit that this is the third time in my life that I have been told that "Tiff" is not capable of a, b or c because "she's too nice".
Do you really think I am incapable of being a bitch?

Hanover? I don't think so. He wasn't a mod at the old place. And he wasn't a mod here before I was a member. — Agustino

So let's work out the conspiracy angle, considering it's all about you. Who was it that added me in the hopes of gaining enough votes to get rid of you? I mean, if we all hate you, why bring me aboard? We could've banned you long ago without the Hanover and now TL court packing scheme.

You saw the screenshot. Jamal asked to bring her on. I'm pretty sure he can ban without me or TL.

Here's my position: I couldn't care any less if you were a gun toting right wing conservative or a communist. No one really cares. My views have been unapolegetically pro American and pro Israel before a crowd often hostile to that sentiment. I've been snarky, perverse, and stubborn, yet on zero occassions have these or the prior mods had to moderate me. The reason being I don't sidetrack our valuable space with drama like this.

My question always is pragmatic. Would this place be better without you and this constant immature stupidity promoted by you and others with the social ineptitude to interact appropriately with others. I've answered that question aloud before, and it wouldn't change even if you joined me a rousing rendition of the Star Spangled Banner. My concern remains that if a serious minded philosopher logged on and read this bullshit, she'd say, "this is bullshit" and walk away.

The mods here simply are not as conservative as me and all the law and order such a personality entails, and for that you owe your continued existence. There is no ideological persecution.

Thank you for your love dear friend, as I treasure that more than any moderator position, as goes with many of my fellow forum members that I call friends. However I must admit that this is the third time in my life that I have been told that "Tiff" is not capable of a, b or c because "she's too nice".
Do you really think I am incapable of being a bitch? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

No, I think you'd make a great mod :D - you're both caring, but you can be stern too when you have to. Like when you reprimanded me for invading your thread :P

Good! Because if one more person says that I am incapable of being a bitch, I am going to seriously have to look over my personality! It is almost a sin to be born and raised in Chicago and not be capable of going from 0 to bitch in 10 seconds flat! ;)

So let's work out the conspiracy angle, considering it's all about you. — Hanover

No, it's all about the diversity of this community, and I'm only relevant when it comes to that. I'm a particular example of how that diversity is threatened, and I'm by far not the only one.

I mean, if we all hate you, why bring me aboard? — Hanover

Who is "you all"?

Who was it that added me in the hopes of gaining enough votes to get rid of you? — Hanover

The segment of the moderator team who was looking to get rid of me (in that context, and of other conservatives in a larger context) and failed to garner sufficient support amongst themselves for that when the opportunity arose.

Would this place be better without you and this constant immature stupidity promoted by you and others with the social ineptitude to interact appropriately with others. — Hanover

Yeah, quite frankly I think this place would be much better off without butt-kissing and vindictive mods like yourself, who seek to take vengeance on other members because they disagree with them.

My views have been unapolegetically pro American and pro Israel before a crowd often hostile to that sentiment. I've been snarky, perverse, and stubborn, yet on zero occassions have these or the prior mods had to moderate me. — Hanover

You're only conservative on some economic issues, you're nowhere near a conservative religiously or socially, so stop being silly. You talk of yourself as if you were the arch-conservative of the forum. Yesterday you even had the audacity to say that conservatives aren't also socially conservative on sexual issues for example and other perverse fantasies of yours.

The mods here simply are not as conservative as me and all the law and order such a personality entails, and for that you owe your continued existence. — Hanover

Yes, and for that reason, you should be off the moderating staff. You are a pernicious influence, who seeks to get rid of those you disagree with by other means. You don't have the courage of a real man to talk through things, you're petty minded, vindictive and hold grudges. You're also manipulative, intolerant, impulsive, and extremely rude, especially to those you perceive yourself to be above. You're the textbook example of the kind of person who bows his head to superiors and steps over those who he perceives as inferiors.

Not to mention that your philosophical knowledge is abysmal, and your actual contributions - philosophically - to this site are very few. The only relevant things you've really contributed were with regards to some economic issues and Cartesianism (of which you do seem to have a decent understanding) - the rest is you playing around like a kid in the Shoutbox. You're free to do that, don't get me wrong, but that doesn't recommend you as a mod. There's many others here, like Janus, who have contributed a lot more philosophically, but they don't have as loud (and dirty) a mouth as you do.

Well it's obvious that he cannot take that decision himself (but he has made it clear which way he wants to go). No doubt that there are reasonable mods in the team, I don't have issues with all mods. But some of them, perhaps a majority now, are definitely questionable in my eyes. For example, I think people like SLX, Hanover and TimeLine are clearly biased, don't keep a cool head and really do not make great mods. I'd go as far as saying that SLX and TimeLine especially are a danger to the diversity of this community. Hanover tends to get stuck on certain people (like myself in this case), but he hasn't shown dangerous ideological and unquestioned presumptions like the other two I've mentioned. — Agustino

Ah man, you don't want to know the discussions I've had with Hanover that got me fuming (and hopefully him too but he's so aloof, probably not). The last discussion with TimeLine ended up with us both considering it a waste of time. I still get to have a laugh with either of them. With Hanover I just don't discuss the ME any more as we'll never see eye to eye there. That's fine. There's more to a person than his political convictions, their stated positions on wanting to ban you or whatever you might not like about them.

SLX funnily enough strikes me as one of the most emotionally balanced persons. That suggests to me it is as much about where we ourselves are coming from that influences how we perceive others. So whatever annoyance I might have about person X, about 50% is me to begin with.

With Hanover I just don't discuss the ME any more as we'll never see eye to eye there. That's fine. There's more to a person than his political convictions, their stated positions on wanting to ban you or whatever you might not like about them. — Benkei

You may be right, and I certainly admire your perspective, however, I believe that for there to be any kind of relationship between two people, there must be mutual respect. Without mutual respect, it is impossible to have any kind of relationship.

So take me and you. I don't agree with some things you think, but I've come to see and understand that you're a nice man with good intentions at heart, and I respect you for that. And I think you've come to a similar understanding. When we talk together, I can see that you respect me too - we can have a relationship even if we disagree.

But take Hanover for example, who still, even today, says that if he was in charge, I would be banned. He said it right above. I do not believe that it is possible to have a relationship with such a person. They are clearly vindictive by nature.

TimeLine — Benkei

Yeah, and I can have a laugh with her too, that's fine, but she's not the right person to be a mod. TimeLine is very talented and skilled, but she doesn't have the cool head it takes to be a mod, nor the right personality, since she's very self-conscious and personally minded in her actions. By her own admissions, she's impulsive and takes decisions she later regrets. She's not balanced enough to be a mod.

But she can absolutely be a great contributor.

SLX funnily enough strikes me as one of the most emotionally balanced persons. — Benkei

What about when he says that the fact that there are biological differences between men and women which are reflected through testosterone, for example, is a myth that is sexist and should be a reason for being banned? Is that emotionally balanced? If SLX had complete power, he would have banned anyone who thinks there are biological differences between men and women. That is clearly very dangerous, and while he can be articulate in some matters when I presented him with scientific evidence to the contrary, he refused to even acknowledge it. He is arrogant through his nonchalance, impulsive and again doesn't have the personality that it takes to be a mod. But he can absolutely be a great contributor, just not a mod.

I don't see why we need to make people like SLX mods. Why? They're fine as contributors. What recommends them to be mods? :s Someone like BC, or Tiff, or even you yourself would make much better mods than them. A certain degree of tolerance of other views and open-mindedness is absolutely necessary in a mod. A mod isn't supposed to be just a contributor with special privileges to impose his views on others.

Or take Hanover who dares to say that my work ethic is questionable with regards to my private life, when I work literarily 7 days a week, working probably even up to 100 hours a week. Such rudeness is absolutely unacceptable - how can someone have a relationship with such a character? And then he dares talk to me about social ineptitude. Really, if none of you sees that there's a problem there, you really are blind.

Hanover is fine as a member, although I find him extremely rude, I don't think he should get banned. But definitely not as a moderator, it puts a bad name on all the mods.

I'll admit that it took me some getting used to you and how you argue but agree I find it easy to discuss with you in the meantime as I think we're used to each others M.O.

Ok so to the rest of your post, I think it's quite clear you would appoint other people to the position of moderator. Here at my current work I see a lot of people appointed to positions I don't think they should be in. I still need to work with them and although I have at occassion complained when the proper procedures weren't followed, by and large it is a waste of my energy. I do my thing, they do their thing and we only meet when we have to. It works. I think, considering the level of influence we can exert here, I would suggest the same - you can use these forums without interacting too much with any of them and still have enough other posters going around to enjoy the site.

Or take Hanover who dares to say that my work ethic is questionable with regards to my private life, when I work literarily 7 days a week, working probably even up to 100 hours a week. Such rudeness is absolutely unacceptable - how can someone have a relationship with such a character? And then he dares talk to me about social ineptitude. Really, if none of you sees that there's a problem there, you really are blind. — Agustino

I can only advise you to flag these posts. I read that post of Hanover and didn't think much about it back then but now seeing you repeat it from your point of view I can see how that's a pretty shitty thing to have to read. That said, your comments about TimeLine's manipulation is quite similar - also pretty shitty to read for her.

Or take Hanover who dares to say that my work ethic is questionable with regards to my private life, when I work literarily 7 days a week, working probably even up to 100 hours a week. Such rudeness is absolutely unacceptable - how can someone have a relationship with such a character? And then he dares talk to me about social ineptitude. Really, if none of you sees that there's a problem there, you really are blind.

Hanover is fine as a member, although I find him extremely rude, I don't think he should get banned. But definitely not as a moderator, it puts a bad name on all the mods. — Agustino

I can only advise you to flag these posts. I read that post of Hanover and didn't think much about it back then but now seeing you repeat it from your point of view I can see how that's a pretty shitty thing to have to read. That said, your comments about TimeLine's manipulation is quite similar - also pretty shitty to read for her. — Benkei

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with Hanover saying that you've got a questionable work ethic. Even if it's entirely false, he's entitled to express his opinion, and that's not against the guidelines. If I had seen that comment flagged, I would have marked it off unchanged.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with Hanover saying that you've got a questionable work ethic. Even if it's entirely false, he's entitled to express his opinion, and that's not against the guidelines. If I had seen that comment flagged, I would have marked it off unchanged. — Sapientia

Well, let's not get into another discussion about decorum... so it's within the rules, I can see that. Nevertheless, I can still understand it's not fun to read for him and it's likely to trigger a reaction from him that won't be conducive to the quality of this site either. I think Agustino has written plenty that isn't fun to read for others either, an example of which I pointed to above.

Where it concerns Hanover and Agustino I'm not even sure who started it and I don't think it matters - bit of a chicken and egg kind of thing by now.

Let's all take a chill pill and try a reset. We're all strangers, nobody knows anybody here and this is a philosophy forum... go. :D

Let's all take a chill pill and try a reset. — Benkei

Amen.

Pff - you'll never see them make Agustino a mod, are you kidding me? >:O — Agustino

Making you a mod might be their perfect revenge?

One of the things the management of this outfit probably keeps in mind -- they should anyway -- is traffic count. You may (you can; you shall! you must; you will) annoy the mods, but you also generate considerable traffic which is important. And, more to the point, you are not dishing up idle chatter. Some posters are much better at this than others, and traffic generators are an essential piece of success here, and in most other sites.

A forum such as this needs diversity, and you and Thorongil (among others) help keep the door open to conservative views. Without diversity what one would find here is an echo chamber.

Yes, it's win-win really. No one need feel insecure. It's not like we ever listen to Hanover anyway. (Y)

you are not dishing up idle chatter — Bitter Crank

:-}

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with Hanover saying that you've got a questionable work ethic. — Sapientia

No, there's nothing wrong in the sense of "Hanover must be banned", but there IS something wrong in terms of the 1) the attitude a moderator has with regards to someone he knows nothing about, and 2) the sheer rudeness of it. Hanover knows nothing about me. If he was a simple poster, it wouldn't be such a big deal. But it's not acceptable behaviour for someone who wants to be a moderator. Someone who goes around making stuff up about another poster, initiating character assassinations, and the like is not fit to be a moderator. That doesn't mean it's anything against the guidelines. It's not against the guidelines for me to start swearing at you. But that would certainly be uncivilised, and not welcome, especially in a moderator.

Work ethics comes under ethics. Ethics comes under philosophy. It's therefore not out of bounds, given the context. Why should he refrain from saying what he thinks just because Agustino finds it offensive? I don't think that Agustino would hold back if the shoe was on the other foot, and I don't think that he should, moderator or not. That's displaying integrity, in my opinion.

It's not against the guidelines for me to start swearing at you. — Agustino

Yes it is. That'd be flaming.

@Agustino

Do you believe that your posts are overly moderated?

Unsubstantiated claims against someone's character isn't philosophy, it's disrespectful trash. Why are you surprised that the person insulted is insulted? It takes no great intelligence to understand why Agustino and others, including myself, are disgruntled with those who are rewarded for acting crassly and like children by being kept a moderator or being made a moderator.

~

Also, I'm still puzzled by what exactly all eight of the moderators have to do for "janitorial duties." What role does TimeLine now fulfill that wasn't before? Being female? Grabbing Agustino by the balls? What exactly? It's comical to me that we have so many moderators, now half of whom are complete dicks to other posters more often than they are cordial and even-handed.

In the end, I don't think the moderating dilemma here will be smoothed out anytime soon. When the owner of the site himself doesn't even think it's a big deal for someone to be falsely accused of rape apologia, sexism, whatever else, then the forum will continue to have strife among its members. In the real world, being falsely accused of something like sexual assault, rape, etc. ends up not only tarnishing someone's reputation and career, but their life as a whole. For this passive-aggressive, hypocritical behavior to be allowed and in some cased encouraged here on this forum beggars belief, really.

All of the moderators here need to reflect on the state of the forum as it is right now. It's not good enough for you all to act like nothing here matters and that you all have better things to do if, on the other side of the coin, you do care enough to strawman, warn, and threaten bans for members that you haven't given the time to understand or appreciate intellectually. This is hypocritical and goes against the whole point of having a philosophy forum. If you moderators don't want a fair environment wherein lots of different people can come together to discuss a wide range of topics, perhaps this ghost ought to be given up.

Right. If the North Korean people don't like Kim Jong Un they should go vote. It says it's a democratic people's republic afterall, so it must be true. It's sad to see you defending the status quo, I thought better of you. You do lack class consciousness in this regard. — Agustino

Sure. We're like Kim Jong Un. Or Hitler. Why not?
And you're like... Ché? Jesus?