I want to endorse self-determination, but national supremacy (for the United States) was a hard-won principle, and has advantages. — Bitter Crank

I think the US is probably a bad case to cite. In other parts of the world, often incompatible nationalities have been jammed together by fiat of some greater power. The USSR is a good example. The British (and Spanish and French and Portuguese) empires are also good examples. In my lifetime, things have changed a lot. Those larger powers have broken up, leaving the smaller entities to work things out for themselves. That trend has also energized other ethnicities, e.g. the Catalans.

When you bind up nationalistic energy for years, decades, centuries, it is surprising but true that it doesn't go away. Release the bands a bit and kaplow!! Good or bad? My guess - not too bad, maybe good. We just need to allow things to reach equilibrium after all that energy is released. Of course, tell that to 800,000 murdered Tutsis.

Instead of diplomacy, the Spanish Gov opted for violence. 13 of PM Ra[t]joy's very professional police had injury's requiring medical attention compared to 761 voters. That s ludicrous, and I think the Spanish Gov will deserve what ever they get in response. These were people who went to vote, it was not an armed insurrection.

Form the Guardian on Friday;

The independence issue is hugely divisive within Catalonia. While the overwhelming majority of Catalans want to have a referendum on sovereignty, many more of them favour remaining part of Spain rather than becoming independent.

I wonder how many still feel the way today, Maybe you remember Kent State.

Thing about independence votes, they only work to separate, not much to join together. Identity is always separation. No homage, no fromage; it's a replay of the civil war as farce; in a post ideological world, identity is the last great passion.

Typical Gruaniad, first they have an overwhelming majority, then many more, and moving in opposite directions. hugely divisive indeed.

The last Spanish civil war was a dry run for WW2, right down to the German saturation bombing of Guernica ... just thought I'd mention that.

No one can be independent, ever.

We all die alone.

Catalonians, aka "Spaniards", — Bitter Crank

Incidentally, Catalonia also extends sentimentally into France where there is also Catalan spoken, known by those who speak La Langue D'Oil (Parisian French) as La langue d'Oc. The region in question is also called Languedoc, though wiki tells me it has now been renamed Occitaine. So once Catalonia is independent, it will be wanting to annex that region of France too. They'll love that.

France IS a nuclear power, after all, so I would guess that the territorial integrity of France is secure.

t independence votes, they only work to separate, not much to join together. Identity is always separation. — unenlightened

What about the Kurds? 90% are in favor of nationhood.

Identity has ambiguous, maybe paradoxical consequences. But most people like their identities, don't they? Should they not like them?

Catalonia, Catalan politicians say, is subsidizing the rest of Spain. Could be, I suppose. The United States has regions that are net "losers" to the Federal Government and regions that are net "winners" from the Feds. The winners tend to be poorer, and the losers tend to be richer. A downside for Spain would be a smaller GDP, never a good thing.

How far does self-determination need to go? Are Catalans an oppressed minority? Doesn't seem to be the case. Is their language outlawed? Do they have strange and peculiar customs which have been rigorously suppressed? Not that I've heard of, other than their better than average performance as capitalists.

As for the Kurds, I can see why anyone would be happy to not be part of Iraq, which hasn't been a happy place for quite a while. Kurdish problems probably can be traced back to the damned Brits who along with the damned French, occupied the Middle East for quite a while, and redrew the area boundaries of the regions in a Foreign Office broom closet, before the damned Israelis took over with the help of the damned Americans, and then there were the damned Egyptians, damned Saudi Arabians, damned Syrians, damned Russians, damned Persians, damned Romans, damned Greeks, et al.

90 +/- in favor -- of those who voted. I don't think its common for 90% of the population to vote for anything.

It is not surprising given the violence of the situation.

The Spanish Gov is demented

These were peaceful voters. How could a government under any justification do this.

Rubber bullets are not water balloons. The mobilization of police forces from around the country, along with the instructions they received, pretty much guaranteed a government-delegitimizing response. A better policy would (obviously? I think obviously) have been to stop at denouncing the vote as a bad idea, and let it go forward unhindered.

Crashing the polling gates could simply not have a positive effect (for the Madrid government's interests). It was a crude and stupid move. The central government would of course have valid reasons to not recognize the vote, and whether the vote was scheduled for today or not, it was clearly time for a national reappraisal of the situation.

Had the central government held their noses, (and held back intervention) the vote might have been far less commanding than 90% approval. Like I said, it isn't very often that voters approve a ballot measure by such overwhelming majorities. Usually it's smaller.

Here is some faked news by a supposed trusted source:

What about the Kurds? 90% are in favor of nationhood. — Bitter Crank

Yes, it's a very similar situation.But who organised the referendum in three countries? No one of course.
What I'm pointing out is the paradox that before you can count the votes, you have to establish the borders, so a vote to change the borders is always a fabrication. France seems to have changed the borders of the region that would have to vote in order to forestall the 'wrong' result. A better policy than nuking their own territory.

Self determination presumes the self.

Catalonia, Catalan politicians say, is subsidizing the rest of Spain. — Bitter Crank

Well here lies exposed the rather sordid reality behind the image of noble peoples struggling for their independence. It's all a power play; if Spain had the sense to move the capital to Barcelona, and rename the country Great Catalonia, then Great Catalonia would be Spain, and the poor regions of the South and centre, would not be itching to divorce themselves. Or perhaps, like Wales, re Britain, or like Britain re Europe, they would, such is the folly of identity.

Morally not so good, but strategically disastrous; about the worst thing they could have done short of mowing them down with machine guns.

It ought to be interesting to see what happens next. Hopefully politicians in Madrid and Catalan will sit down and figure a peaceful way out of the situation. If Madrid starts to arrest people such as Carlos Puigdemont, Catalan's head of government, and Ada Colau the mayor of Barcelona, then all bets are off and I would expect strikes and Marshal Law.

I agree. You would hope they have a plan seeing as they escalated it. But I doubt it. Emotion triumphs over reason yet again.

Hey, wait a minute. Is the title to this thread playing off of Orwell's Homage to Catalonia? Or is it a reference to the cheese makers of Catalonia, or (not to take BC literally) all those Catalans who are makers of dairy products?

Knowing the erudite BC, it must be the former.

I don't understand the push for independence in Catalonia - had hardly been paying attention, but I did hear on a broadcast that the turn-out was extremely high for 'Yes' voters, and that 'No' voters largely abstained, and that the total turnout was well under half eligible voters. All of which adds up to a skewed result, if true. The government response was brutal and anti-democratic, from what I saw on the news. I suppose understanding the background would require quite a bit of research and reading, but on face value, I can't see a lot of advantage to separatism.

Thoughts? — Bitter Crank

Nation states should be broken up, with smaller regions then belonging to some overarching international community. The US and the EU have elements of this, but of course the US is a defensively stanced nation-state, whereas the EU is a sort of internationalist project that aspires to welcome more into its fold. Scotland nearly voted for independence from the UK on the basis that it could be part of the EU, and no doubt some Catalonians feel the same.

I find my position to be very ironic, because I do support the break up of nation states into smaller regions, particularly where there is strong cultural and ethnical cohesiveness. However, I also think that ethnicity, tribalism, "us" v "them" ... whatever you want to call it - is a huge drag on human happiness, and the sooner it disappears the better. But I just think that smaller states confederated is ultimately more progressive than larger ultra competitive nation states, and has a better chance of leading to World Government.

Ultimately the world's regions should provide overall cultural, geographic and economic diversity by each being different, but that ethnicity should be no barrier to belonging to them. We should be able to choose as a World Govt citizen, to live in a region that suits our lifestyle and aspirations. Regions should be managed for diversity by a World government.

But first we must grant regions autonomy - even on the reactionary basis of ethnicity - otherwise regions will never properly happen.

Catalonia is part of Spain which is part of the European Union. If it secedes from Spain, it will still be culturally part of Spain and it will be part of the European Union (assuming the EU were to accede to their plans). What have they gained?

Scotland secedes from Great Britain which was to some people's discomfiture, part of the EU, is culturally part of Britain, and could belong to the EU. What does it gain? (I assume both Catalonia and Scotland expect some economic advantages to accrue.)

ironic — Jake Tarragon

Ironic or contradictory.

Regions should be managed for diversity by a World government. — Jake Tarragon

Why does diversity need to be managed by any government, let alone a world government? What could possibly go wrong with that? People will produce diversity, managed or not, and if some people like their homogeneous selves, well, that adds to planetary diversity.

Will the World Government be sending Nigerians to Japan, Brazilians to Norway, and Chinese to Saudi Arabia? Probably Chinese everywhere. "Well Look, Andorra -- you don't have any Chinese here at all. You don't even have a bad chow mein take out shop here. Everyone must have diverse bad menu options. You need about 200 Chinese Communist bureaucrats, none of whom can cook their way out of a bowl of white rice."

"Switzerland? You have no uneducated, southern redneck Americans here. No ghetto gang members either. What's the matter with you? We'll be sending you a selection of 3000 representative examples. What do you mean? Of course they will have criminal records! You need that diverse element here."

What does it gain? — Bitter Crank

Perhaps nothing but cultural/patriotic pride... the same thing that the bigger nation state has to lose presumably. Nation states like to big themselves up - that's the problem with the game they play.

Why does diversity need to be managed by any government, let alone a world government? — Bitter Crank

I should explain that in this context I meant cultural/geographic/economic diversity. Ethnic diversity would presumably gradually change as people slowly migrate under controlled conditions. Regions that belong to a world government that are not economically powerful could expect generous subsidization of their way in life in return for allowing a certain amount of outsiders to move in. So, for example, the Mongolian nomads might find their numbers swelled by a few Californian droput hippies.... who knows what would happen eventually. Perhaps race and ethnicity would eventually disappear, and that would be a Good Thing, I think, as long as CGE-diversity is maintained and/or evolves.

The news about Catalan does not sound good. The government in Madrid is passing a law to enable corporations to move their base of operations without going through shareholder approval and the Catalan government is talking about declaration of independence. Prompting an exodus.

Given Madrid's medieval response to the referendum vote, its response to a declaration of independence may be catastrophic.

Catalonia's President Carles Puigdemont said last night that he wants to reach a negotiated settlement with the Spanish government, calling on King Felipe VI of Spain to push for open dialogue rather than endorsing the "catastrophic" approach by Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, per the New York Times.

Victor Spinetti reminded me that before the first world war, there were no passports or immigration controls. His grandfather walked from Italy to Wales to work in the mines. Now that's what I call free movement of labour. Hence the rather odd name for a Welshman.

Six years have passed since this thread. The last time you were only was a year ago. Yet, I think you need more clarification of ideas because I guess you are brainwashed and maybe you still have the same wrong perspective on Spain and Catalonia.

Facts:

Puigdemont and Junqueras committed a Coup d' Etat. They decided to not respect the Spanish constitution and courts. Furthermore, they tended to even "kick" out those Catalonians who want to be part of Spain (because hey! Do not forget they are Spaniards too!).
But the tables had turned in the worst way possible. Pedro Sánchez (aka our naughty socialist PM) decided to let them free to become President. This dude even says now on: WhAt Do yOu prEefeR a 2017 CaTaaLoniA or 2023 Catalonia? Pathetic!!!!!!!!

Surprise! The intentional vote for independence has been decreasing since then. Barcelona (because let's be honest, nobody cares about the other three regions) is ruled now by Socialists who wants to be part of Spain in a federal way, as well as USA or Germany. A few years ago they even pretended to share the capital city with Madrid. Holly molly! How these folks change when their asses see money and power on the table.

Ding Ding! The bell of European court has rung in favour of Spain's state and constitution. They declare that Puigdemont and Junqueras were clearly surpassing the rule of law, they were forcing people to vote for an independence and guess what? The origin of the money collected for the 2017 horrendous campaign is opaque and there is evidence of washing money or tax avoidance. Didn't you say, as well as separatists, that our law was medieval? What about European Union law then? I wish you had the chance to see their faces after years and years refusing Spanish courts when the European sentence was published. Yikes!

After these years of cringe and international circus, separatists have given up on independence (and Catalonia particularly) because they ended up at the conclusion that it is impossible to live independently and it is better to suck up the resources of the State. One of the members of congress of the Catalonian political separatist parties said in the Congress: I will only stay 15 months in the Congress of the fascist state bla bla, because that's the time we need to get independence. He has been a representative for six years in a row and remains because there were national elections and he will still be in Congress. Is this a circus or am I losing something? Why don't we have correct politicians? Jesus Christ...

Maybe you will no longer care about this little Mediterranean Kosovo. But it is funny how the tables have turned. From wishing the independence of an evil state to see the Spanish National Team at the Camp Nou.