Why did 'negentropy' become a factor of consideration? It was because it appeared anomalous, in an analogous way to altruism appearing anomalous to selection, until Hamilton came along with his mathematical rationalisations. So there's a motivation here, or a theoretical axiom, which is brought to bear on the question, namely, the requirement to conform to physical laws. — Wayfarer
If you have lower degrees of order leading to greater degrees of order by itself that is contradictory - it's the same as having something come from nothing.
Now when we reach the first cause, we have no reason that requires us to go back. There's nothing else that needs to be explained. — Agustino
And now we have folk stamping their feet impatiently, saying why hasn't science cracked the final mystery? — apokrisis
I prefer a unitary story where our Universe must be the best of all possible universes. — apokrisis
No knowledge with regards to the very far future and the very far past counts as "strongly" supported. — Agustino
What is the first cause if not something come from nothing. — praxis
I was responding to your argument of the universe being 'fundamentally a process of disordering'. I pointed out that an order might be said to exist, prior to any process of 'disordering'. — Wayfarer
why does 2 plus 2 equal 4? — Wayfarer
That is why you need to pay attention to the actual science. — apokrisis
Prigogine showed how order arises emergently and so is not prior but immanent. — apokrisis
we are left with the question of whether that designer was designed..., — praxis
Utter lack of determination is a logical contradiction, for it aims to be a determination itself and fails. — Agustino
You may think of absolute chaos as two balls moving in empty space absolutely chaotically, without any rhyme or purpose. — Agustino
The question whether the first cause is "immanent" - what does that even mean? - hasn't been addressed — Agustino
You. That's what your argument entails. It entails that statistically, lower degrees of order will lead to higher degrees of order. And that's precisely what is under the question. You take that as a brute fact, while it clearly asks for explanation as shown by the OP first of all. — Agustino
LOL! No, the scientists themselves are not that sure. We don't understand dark energy very well. We can't even predict what the weather will be in 5 days very accurately, you think we can predict what will happen to the Universe in many billions of years? — Agustino
The intelligent designer solves a problem. — Agustino
It can simply mean that the cause is unknown. — praxis
It's a perfectly valid question. The fact that no one knows the answer doesn't make it a bad question. — praxis
I'm afraid 'who made God?' is not a valid question, because 'the first cause' is by definition something that is unmade. — Wayfarer
So if the question is, who made that which was never made, then there is no answer. — Wayfarer
It is like asking, who broke that unbroken vase? — Wayfarer
Somewhat missing in these discussions is that science is the one that has demonstrated the Universe had a beginning. The Big Bang happened 13.8 billion years ago. — apokrisis
Prigogine showed how order arises emergently and so is not prior but immanent. — apokrisis
Prigogine's Mind created a story of how his Mind might have happened. — Rich
In the theory of spontaneous symmetry breaking, it all starts with "a fluctuation".
...
So now the focused attention is going towards the question of "the first fluctuation". — apokrisis
We now actually know that there is a "quantum Planck-scale" at which definite actions and definite accidents blur into each other indistinguishably. — apokrisis
Symmetry maths says when every permutation is permitted, what emerges is the realisation that some arrangements can't be randomised out of existence. — apokrisis
Then having accepted such a vague notion of the divine - with is mentalistic connotations - just drop the divine part and get on with the naturalistic account? — apokrisis
An intelligent designer that has always existed? — praxis
At best some nucleic acids and amino acids have been produced in laboratory conditions trying to simulate what life on earth might have been like. — MikeL
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