Sorry, even the heritage foundation doesn’t know how many illegals have voted in elections. There is no way to know either way if no one has to prove their citizenship. — NOS4A2

So there's no evidence of widespread voter fraud.

But if they wanted to, they could get one. That’s the reality. — NOS4A2

It's not as easy as you're pretending it is. As an example from here:

19% of Americans without a driver’s license said they didn’t have one because of bureaucratic or economic barriers, such as not being able to afford the license or not having underlying documents like a birth certificate or Social Security card.

...

US citizens of color are also more likely than white citizens not to have documents that prove their citizenship. For example, older Black voters in the South and Indigenous Americans who were not born in a hospital may not have a birth certificate at all.

So there's no evidence of widespread voter fraud.

“Widespread”. That word just seems to always find itself in front of “voter fraud” whenever an apologist speaks of it. Is plain old non-widespread voter fraud ok in your books?

It's not as easy as you're pretending it is. As an example from here:

It doesn’t follow from here that they should be allowed to drive, fly, or vote in what ought to be secure elections.

“Widespread”. That word just seems to always find itself in front of “voter fraud” whenever an apologist speaks of it. Is plain old non-widespread voter fraud ok in your books? — NOS4A2

Disenfranchising millions of eligible voters to prevent 1,600 ineligible votes over 40 years does more harm than good. If there were millions of fraudulent votes per election then ID laws would make more sense, but when there's barely any? It's absurd. It's like burning your house down to kill some spiders.

It doesn’t follow from here that they should be allowed to drive, fly, or vote in what ought to be secure elections. — NOS4A2

They absolutely should be allowed to vote.

All I'm hearing from you is "fuck poor people".

Disenfranchising millions of eligible voters to prevent 1,600 ineligible votes over 40 years does more harm than good. If there were millions of fraudulent votes per election then ID laws would make more sense, but when there's barely any? It's absurd. It's like burning your house down to kill some spiders.

So every country that requires ID to vote is disenfranchising millions of people. But I hear no one making such an argument against other countries, like Canada, Finland, France, Germany, Norway, New Zealand, Mexico, Argentina, UK, Sweden, Switzerland, Netherlands.

That no fraud is found is no argument that it never occurs. That’s a complete fallacy. The point of fraud is that it is not found. That’s the point of all criminal activity. And the fact that no “widespread” fraud occurs is not an argument that it does not exist. The point is to prevent fraud, not to prove past fraud.

Why do certain politicians not want voters to prove their citizenship, like other civilized countries? — NOS4A2

A driver's license will not be enough. Millions of women will have to provide a passport or a birth certificate. Many will not be able to. it's clearcut voter suppression.

In Canada, all we need is a driver's license

That no fraud is found is no argument that it never occurs.

:rofl: In the running for one of the stupidest things I’ve heard on this forum.

“There’s no evidence that the tooth fairy exists, but that’s not an argument that she doesn’t exist.”

And so why then do we think voter fraud exists? Well, Daddy Trump said so.

And he’s right: .0000845% fraud in Arizona over 25 years. About the percentage nationally — not once close to being significant, let alone altering an election— anywhere, ever. But yes, it exists. Easier to round down to 0, but it exists.

So don’t say it doesn’t exist; that’s a fallacy. Believing in something when there’s no evidence—definitely not a fallacy. :up: Welcome to the MAGA cult.

For those keeping score:

• Voter fraud: real.
  
• Affordability: hoax.
  
• Climate change: hoax.
  
• Vaccines: hoax.
  
• January 6th: a day of love.
  
• The economy: greatest in the history of the world.
  
• Tariffs: Great success.

Well, we Americans elected him…

You city gives you a birth certificate when born. — NOS4A2

So the babies are going to hang on to their birth certificates so that they'll be able to vote when they hit the legal age. Or maybe your mommy might do it for you? Life is good isn't it?

January 6th: a day of love. — Mikie

Where did February 14th go?

So the babies are going to hang on to their birth certificates so that they'll be able to vote when they hit the legal age. Or maybe your mommy might do it for you? Life is good isn't it?

What?

The Conservatives did bring in a requirement for voter ID in the U.K. two years ago on the back of populist lies that there was voter fraud going on which could sway elections. It did disenfranchise up to 2 million people in the 2024 general election while voter fraud is usually between one and five voters at each election.

It’s impossible for significant voter fraud to happen in the U.K. without it becoming known to the electoral commission. There are sufficient checks and safe guards in place to verify every single vote.

House Trump takes a different approach:

Goldman Sachs’ top lawyer Kathy Ruemmler to resign after emails show close ties to Jeffrey Epstein
^{— Ken Sweet · AP · Feb 13, 2026}
Goldman Sachs’ top lawyer Kathy Ruemmler to resign after emails show close ties to Jeffrey Epstein
^{— AP · Feb 13, 2026 · 36s}

Then:

Trump would make America’s inflation crisis worse, 16 Nobel economists warn

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/26/business/nobel-economists-trump-inflation

Now:

Inflation cooled in January, dropping to lowest level in 9 months

https://abcnews.com/amp/Business/inflation-expected-cooled-january/story?id=130059514

One of Obama’s top lawyers. It’s almost crazy they wanted this stuff out, then it keeps backfiring in their faces. So funny.

The crazy Republican blonde chick wanted the files published. She quit Congress over it, didn't she?

He's dished out threats before — Feb 12, 2026

Gallup will no longer measure presidential approval after 88 years
^{— Dominick Mastrangelo · The Hill · Feb 11, 2026}

They absolutely should be allowed to vote.

All I'm hearing from you is "fuck poor people". — Michael

That's an extremely odd response to what he's saying.

Verified citizens should be able to vote. That's just an administrative no brainer. It has nothing to do with attitudes towards poor people. Are you saying that anyone, anywhere, without providing that they're actually legally able to vote, should be able to vote? I just want to get clear before making any further comments.

I think that every citizen ought be allowed to vote, and that the government ought not introduce any economic or bureaucratic hurdles that can effectively disenfranchise the poor (or anyone else). If they cannot make it free and easy for every citizen to get ID then it should be the government's burden to prove that a voter isn't a citizen and not a citizen's burden to prove that they are.

:up: :up:

If they cannot make it free and easy for every citizen to get ID then it should be the government's burden to prove that a voter isn't a citizen and not a citizen's burden to prove that they are. — Michael

Yeah, got you; thanks for that. I understand the impetus.

I think that's utterly absurd and probably a cause for concern if you're ever in position to run any large number of people.

If they cannot make it free and easy for every citizen to get ID then it should be the government's burden to prove that a voter isn't a citizen and not a citizen's burden to prove that they are. — Michael

I think this would work very well, and something similar is probably working very well already. Illegals wouldn't even try to vote because there would be a possibility of getting caught and deported. And, they would really get very little if anything, in return for casting a vote. Clearly they would not be so inclined.

The idea that there is any significant number of illegals voting is simply ridiculous. I mean, voter turn out is only around 60% of eligible people. They can't even get the eligible motivated! It's crazy to think that there's a bunch of ineligibles just champing at the bit, to cast a vote for nothing. Voting will not make them become legal or anything like that.

Obviously, the need is to go the other way, make it easier for people to vote, not more difficult.

Regarding voting ID and voter fraud, let’s just remember one thing, constantly: THERE IS NO PROBLEM HERE. There never was. The whole thing is fabricated and thus totally pointless.

A stupid issue for gullible people.

he idea that there is any significant number of illegals voting is simply ridiculous. — Metaphysician Undercover

Ok. That's not relevant to this issue, unless it is for you. Let's assume all the current speculation comes to fruition, and there's multiple legitimate cases about large numbers of ineligible voters. Let's just say that's true. Cool. I wont be mentioning it again.

They can't even get the eligible motivated! — Metaphysician Undercover

So what?

It's crazy to think that there's a bunch of ineligibles just champing at the bit, to cast a vote for nothing. — Metaphysician Undercover

Wait; what? A vote for ...nothing? I cannot understand what you might mean. There are plenty of reasons for illegals to vote, if they're able.

Obviously, the need is to go the other way, make it easier for people to vote, not more difficult. — Metaphysician Undercover

It isn't difficult. That's the entire point. It isn't difficult, and most countries have no issues with these requirements. We do where I live. Want to know something? It was literally never spoken about, complained about or mentioned as anything other than a good for election security until BLM started getting international coverage. It's coattails.

As far as I am concerned, saying its fine for anyone to vote in federal elections without oversight or confirmation of eligibility is essentially ending secure elections. And, that is what it is by definition. So, it's not all that interesting to me whether people are doing it. It is that it shouldn't be allowed by the system.

On the other hand, what I actually have a problem with is people complaining about not being able to vote (when they probably wouldn't anyway if there wasn't social cache in complaining), due to regulations that apply to everyone. Everyone. It is fair. I think something I agree with NOS4a2 on is that the trust in the "system" as somehow uncorrupt, while discussing support for avenues for corrupt activity is bizarre.

I think probably that's an overstatement, but it definitely seems unfounded and mostly the arena for the gullible, yes. Luckily, for the argument supporting voter regulation, that's not really relevant.
The point is that allowing people to vote with no check on whether they are eligible is stupid. It is stupid.

The point is that allowing people to vote with no check on whether they are eligible is stupid. — AmadeusD

And not true. they don't just register anyone who walks in the door.

There is a rage growing in women. When they see children and babies hurt, but instead of addressing that pain, institutions close ranks and protect the predators instead, ancient instincts awake.

I think this goes some way to the Republican push to suppress the female vote.

You don't have to get the special ID to vote in my state. I don't think you can get a passport without it, though.

The point is that allowing people to vote with no check on whether they are eligible is stupid. — AmadeusD

So your conception is that somewhere in the universe, people are allowed to vote without any check on whether they’re eligible to do so — and that this is stupid and wrong. Is this really the assertion?

And not true. they don't just register anyone who walks in the door. — Questioner

I have seen evidence which would support that claim. I'm not standing heavily behind it, but the entire argument is that people should be able to vote without being verified. In that context, what are you indicating there? I'm just plum unaware of what that process would be, sans ID or whatever..

So your conception is that somewhere in the universe, people are allowed to vote without any check on whether they eligible to do so. Is this really the argument you’re making? — Mikie

You can re-read and answer this yourself. Please do not put words in people's mouths. We're making some headway recently.

You can re-read and answer this yourself. Please do not put words in people's mouths. — AmadeusD

Lol — literally repeated what you said.

But yeah, just confirming out of politeness. Didn’t think such a stupid argument existed. Can’t say I’m surprised.

Anyway, my advice to you elsewhere stands: why repeatedly embarrass yourself by wading into topics you know nothing about, like US voting? Stick to fluff. :up:

I have seen evidence which would support that claim. — AmadeusD

But I’m guessing you won’t share it. That may be substantive, so best to avoid.

Oh wait — it doesn’t exist. But what about Trump and Rogan? They couldn’t be screaming about these things for nothing…

[q

But I’m guessing you won’t share it. — Mikie

Well, no. I'm not having a substantive debate here, and again, it isn't about those claims anyway (and, unless you're about to admit bad faith, its clear I don't take them too seriously or support some campaign to 'sort it out' or whatever). It is about the concept of unverified voting - which responses seem to indicate most people aren't happy with anyway, it's just that they aren't occurring. That's fine.

But what about Trump and Rogan? They couldn’t be screaming about these things for nothing… — Mikie

They certainly could.

literally repeated what you said — Mikie

You "literally" did you. You suggested, in your own words, an uncharitable claim i didn't make and didn't intimate would be my position. Check yourself.

Anyway, my advice to you elsewhere stands: why repeatedly embarrass yourself by wading into topics you know nothing about, like US voting? Stick to fluff. :up: — Mikie

You don't take my advice. I am loathe to take yours. You constantly comment on things you're clearly not up to. Apparently, so do i.

Onward we go Mikie. Smoke a joint and calm down.

You don't have to get the special ID to vote in my state. I don't think you can get a passport without it, though. — frank

That's cool. Can you vote upon some standard ID doc?

There is a rage growing in women. — Questioner

Speak for yourself, Questioner.

ancient instincts awake — Questioner

To attend protests? LOL.