I understand what you are saying about political messaging. What is most important to me is the scale of the present effort. The recognition deserves its own moment.

That is worth reading. Thanks!

There can be no middle road on this issue. You either support fascism, or you do not. — Questioner

So what do you make of the many people that are disgusted about the politics, but just live on with their lives? Besides, in a democracy you can elect other people after those with fascist tendencies and you don't go after those that did vote for the authoritarian candidate. There are countries that have been capable of this.

You’re supporting crime. If Trump took out Hitler there would be riots. There was people out there protesting when he took out Maduro. This is what anti-Trumpism leads people to do. — NOS4A2

I don't think there were no riots after Maduro was taken out. In fact even Caracas was quite silent as people were afraid if a war would come. And if there was a protest, pretty small one compared to the response to the execution style murders done by incompetent goons that ICE unfortunately now represents. Anyway, if Rubio tried to make it a case of bringing Maduro to justice, Trump made it quite clear just what it was all about oil by declaring the he would now manage the oil of Venezuela. That's the criticism. What I've noticed is that usually people refer to the fact that Maduro stole the elections and that basically his regime (naturally without him) is still running Venezuela.

Don't live in your own echo chamber, but listen to what actually the critique is about.

So what's your take on the WSJ that Trump has benefitted 1,5 billion dollars in one year of his second term? What do you think about Trump asking 1 billion for a permanent seat on "Board of Peace", where he is chairman for life? Is that Presidential behavior? This from the guy that promised to "drain the swamp".

So what do you make of the many people that are disgusted about the politics, but just live on with their lives? Besides, in a democracy you can elect other people after those with fascist tendencies and you don't go after those that did vote for the authoritarian candidate. There are countries that have been capable of this. — ssu

I was thinking about some of the disingenuous opinions shared in this thread, and the opinion in general, that one can someone "rise above reality" and ignore how millions of people are being negatively affected, as if it were all a paper game, as if the stakes were not as high as they are. Taking the people out of the equation leaves an empty shell of empty words.

A woman and a man were murdered by the state, and it appears there will be no accountability. This is a fascist act. Trying to rationalize the murders is an implicit support of fascism.

But yes, you are right, voting against the fascists is of course taking an anti-fascist position. And I hear the hope in your post that the current situation is an aberration and things will return to "normal" after the fascists are out of power.

This requires actively countering the fascists' goal of never having to give up power - more than sitting on top of a pedestal and declaring, "That's just the way it is!"

Action is required. We've seen that the action of committed people in Minnesota has resulted in Trump backing off somewhat.

A book I read years ago by Rebecca Solnit - Hope in the Dark: Untold Histories, Wild Possibilities -
makes a call for activism, and "makes a radical case for hope as a commitment to act in a world whose future remains uncertain and unknowable."

https://www.amazon.ca/Hope-Dark-Untold-Histories-Possibilities/dp/1608465764

So what's your take on the WSJ that Trump has benefitted 1,5 billion dollars in one year of his second term? What do you think about Trump asking 1 billion for a permanent seat on "Board of Peace", where he is chairman for life? Is that Presidential behavior? This from the guy that promised to "drain the swamp".

Do you mean the Trump Organization has benefited? That’s a business that has been around for 4 decades and has over 10,000 employees. I understand that anti-Trumpism doesn’t allow one to differentiate between Trump the president and Trump the organization, so I simply do not take the criticism seriously.

I think the Board of Peace is going to do better than the United Nations and the effete Rules-based International Order combined, mainly because they treat states as “legal persons”, complete with rights and duties, and Trump doesn’t. Besides, Trump alone has already done more to secure peaceful dialogue than all of Europe and the United Nations has ever done, anywhere, at any time, so maybe it will only prove to undermine those institutions further.

Action is required. We've seen that the action of committed people in Minnesota has resulted in Trump backing off somewhat. — Questioner

Yet that action can be still done by the rules of the republic, just as the people of Minneapolis have done. Is Minneapolis burning? Is there looting? No. Minnesotans are showing how to deal with Trump.

Why? Because Trump is no Putin. With a guy like Vlad, the US would have already lost totally it's republic and likely a majority would be pleased with the way things are going. Not with Trump as Trump's worst enemy is Donald himself.

And we can already see that the Trump regime is panicking...and blame each other. Democrats are demanding Noem to be fired or face impeachment. And Noem seems to be whisked away "to oversee issues on the Mexican border". Of course the real head that should roll here (because it won't be Trump) is Stephen Miller. His deranged quotas and enlisting of untrained agents with against the law tactics has backfired as it evidently would be. The worst thing of course that the White House went with ludicrous lies of domestic terrorists attempting to assaulting law officers, when everyone can see the trigger happy executions that these goons do.

And of course the second murder really did spoil what should have been Melania's week: her film is coming out, so I guess that she got upset the events in Minnesota and made a rare public announcement. That might actually have made Trump to think that the straightforward lying won't bring him success.

And on the international front, I think the response to Trump has been shown with the actions and the stance that Canadian prime minister Mark Carney has adopted. Trump himself saved the Liberal Party from a humiliating defeat and destroyed the pro-Trump candidates chances by his condescending attacks on Canadians. And people are getting the message: if you accept what Trump wants, he will see it as weakness and will come form more later. Mark Carney gave a great speech in Davos, which likely will be one of the important speeches in this system. Anyway, the damage towards that allies have already been done: even if the US ousts Trump and US leaders will want to strengthen their alliances, people will always remember that Americans voted twice for Trump, and thus can vote populist fascists again to power.

Of course the real head that should roll here (because it won't be Trump) is Stephen Miller.

Yes, he gave ICE agents federal immunity,

To all ICE officers: You have federal immunity in the conduct of your duties. Anybody who lays a hand on you or tries to stop you or tries to obstruct you is committing a felony. You have immunity to perform your duties, and no one — no city official, no state official, no illegal alien, no leftist agitator or domestic insurrectionist — can prevent you from fulfilling your legal obligations and duties. The Department of Justice has made clear that if officials cross that line into obstruction, into criminal conspiracy against the United States or against ICE officers, then they will face justice."

https://www.fox9.com/news/trump-adviser-stephen-miller-tells-ice-have-federal-immunity-when-dealing-protesters

And we can already see that the Trump regime is panicking.. — ssu

Trump fascists are throwing each other under the bus.

Noem shifting blame -

“Everything I’ve done, I’ve done at the direction of the president and Stephen,” Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem told one source who relayed her comments to Axios.

In an earlier copy of the Axios report, others blamed Miller for divisive comments about slain anti-ICE protestor Alex Pretti wanting to “massacre law enforcement,” which were made by Border Patrol senior official Greg Bovino.

Miller shifting blame -

Stephen Miller admitted that Border Patrol agents may 'not have been following protocol' during the fatal shooting of Alex Pretti as Kristi Noem appeared to blame him for the fallout.

Miller's remarks were a dramatic U-Turn just days after the top Trump aide lambasted the 37-year-old nurse as 'an assassin' who 'tried to murder federal agents'.

In a statement to the Daily Mail, Miller said: 'We are evaluating why the CBP team may not have been following that protocol.'

I apologise for wading into this thread.

It has made me far less optimistic about several posters.

I reject the nihilist point-of-view.

I think there is great meaning in how we live our lives and the decisions we make, for they affect the lives of others.

I reject that we must remain pawns and victims of external influences.

Yes, immigration enforcement is necessary, but it must be done with the consent of the governed. It must be lawful and accountable. What do you make of this? - an ICE agent saying to an American citizen, “If you raise your voice, I erase your voice.”

Right now, nearly half of the American people support abolishing ICE altogether – more than support it.

As concentration camp survivor Viktor Frankl writes in Man’s Search for Meaning (page 130-1) –

To be sure, man is a finite thing, and his freedom is restricted. It is not freedom from conditions, but it is freedom to take a stand toward the conditions…

Man determines himself, whether he gives into conditions or stands up to them…

One of the main features of human existence is the capacity to rise above such conditions, to grow beyond them. Man is capable of changing the world for the better if possible, and of changing himself for the better if necessary.

If you are a Christian, listen to Jesus, who encouraged action against injustice – see the Parable of the Persistent Widow – (Luke 18:1-5) -

Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’

“For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”

Why was there few if any protests over Biden and Obama's deportation numbers (~5 million each) yet mass protests for Trump (~2 million)?

mass protests for Trump — BitconnectCarlos

No-one is protesting deportations. They are protesting the lawless, fascist tactics.

Despite some rhetoric about “deescalation” in Minnesota, the reality on the ground is that nothing significant has changed. There are still thousands of untrained, violent paramilitary units hunting brown people all over Minnesota.

mass protests for Trump [Pedo-in-Chief]
— @BitconnectCarlos

No-one is protesting deportations. They are protesting the lawless, fascist tactics. — Questioner

:100: :mask:

Why, why, why??!

Oh wait…Just more whataboutism. :yawn:

I guess someone has to say it: No one gives a shit about what you think. :victory:

No-one is protesting deportations. They are protesting the lawless, fascist tactics. — Questioner

Yes. These Trump apologists are simply incapable of just saying “yeah this is wrong.” Gotta be false equivalence and whataboutism. How intellectually lazy— and boring.

You obviously do, Mikie. Your mental schism is bizarre.

I apologise for wading into this thread.

It has made me far less optimistic about several posters. — AmadeusD

You have to appreciate it for what it is: some form of tribal ritual. You shouldn't expect anything constructive from people who are at the height of religious ecstasy.

Trump is being fetishized as the personification of pure evil, and by continually bewailing his existence one not only exculpates themselves from America's misdeeds but also puts themselves at the other end; that of pure good.

Both sides of the political aisle do this (and even people in other western countries who are part of the same system), but it's reaching a crescendo under Trump as America's global reputation is tanking and its corruption, historical and present, is plain for all to see.

Unfortunately, this sort of tribalism only extends the lifespan of the system.

Why was there few if any protests over Biden and Obama's deportation numbers (~5 million each) yet mass protests for Trump (~2 million)? — BitconnectCarlos

Because both Biden and Obama did not go with it as Trump has done.

And the first thing to understand is that WHEN there's democrats in power, it is percieved by immigrants, legal or illegal, that the US is more open to immigration while people understand that Trump is hostile towards immigration. Now tourists from Europe are afraid to come into the US. Then during Obama and Biden the border control performed it's ordinary duties at the border, not patrolling through US cities.

And what has specifically Trump done wrong, I earlierly commented on this, but here it's again.

It's really a concept of how to really fuck everything up:

1) Rapidly enlarge one particular force disregarding a vetting process and training.

2) Take literally the political rhetoric of "tough on illegal immigration" by disregarding formal standard police procedure, perhaps as "pinko-liberal weak" obstacle for the process. — ssu

(This is literally true: @Punshhh made an apt comment about this here: )

3) Have totally ludicrous "quotas" ordered by the White House that simply cannot be achieved as the country's tough stance on immigration has already diminished the actual size of illegal immigration.

4) Have no cooperation with local law enforcement and basically treat the local authorities as part of the problem. Have the actions of this government force heavily politicized.

5) When all the above points 1) to 4) create popular resentment and accidents of total ineptness occur, like where one ICE team member taking away an holstered gun leads to someone yelling "GUN" and several agents discharge there weapons several times on a victim that was already on the ground and wasn't a threat, THEN LIE ABOUT IT even if there is multiple video evidence from different angles of the incident. — ssu

In fact, by interviewing ICE and border patrol agents, Ken Klippenstein wrote a good article ICE Unloads about how badly the agents themselves see the situation. Worth reading. For those that don't read it all, here's a quote. Klippenstein writes:

Overall, as someone who has been covering this for months, I am struck by how angry homeland security officers are with their own agencies, and their blunt dismissal of the Washington leadership. All of the immigration officers I interviewed for this story spoke on the condition of anonymity.

Sagging morale and declining standards are a constant theme I picked up, problems that these sources say have been festering long before the deaths of Pretti and Renee Good (and ones that very much contributed to these outcomes).

More than one ICE agent in particular complained about how Washington’s focus on labeling protestors as “impeding” federal functions (and thus breaking the law), and the vilification of “Antifa” and others labeled paid agitators, leftists, radicals, extremists, and terrorists is confusing the ranks while also distracting everyone from the immigration enforcement mission.

“I can go on and on but overall it’s been a ridiculous experience,” one ICE agent told me. He says that many agents on the ground are just going along with the expanded mission because they are more interested in their away-from-home per diem pay and collecting overtime than whatever the mission is.

Others express the cynicism typical of everyone who toils at the bottom of any bureaucratic food chain, pooh-poohing rapid expansion of the ICE army and shaking their heads over the ridiculous budget increases being fought for in Washington that will have no impact where they work.

“The brand new agents are idiots,” an experienced ICE agent assigned to homeland security investigations told me. This same sentiment was echoed by virtually everyone I talked to, with several conveying the view that Pretti’s death was the fault of some skittish young recruit who panicked when he heard the word “gun” (if that’s what happened).

Hopefully this answered just why Trump's actions are different from the past presidents and just why there is so much criticism.

Trump is being fetishized as the personification of pure evil, and by continually bewailing his existence one not only exculpates themselves from America's misdeeds but also puts themselves at the other end; that of pure good. — Tzeentch

:rofl:

We get this elaborate bullshit in lieu of a simple “yeah that guy shouldn’t have been shot.”

Both sides of the political aisle do this — Tzeentch

But definitely not you! Lol

We get a strawman with the complexity of a Star Wars plot to excuse the minimizing of crimes of one’s preferred administration. But yeah we all think you’re still above it all.



Risible.

We get this elaborate bullshit in lieu of a simple “yeah that guy shouldn’t have been shot.” — Mikie

Except, it wasn't just a simple "yeah that guy shouldn't have been shot" - it's moral grandstanding about fascism, calling people 'human garbage', instantly jobbing everyone who isn't chanting along with superficial lamentations into 'the other camp', etc.

People were probably too busy whipping each other up into this self-gratifying frenzy that they lost all sense of self-awareness. It's a rather indecent sight.

But definitely not you! — Mikie

Feel free to point it out wherever I do. Oh, and by using my actual words and not what you think I must "secretly" believe because I am somehow partisan in the US clownshow.

some form of tribal ritual. You shouldn't expect anything constructive from people who are at the height of religious ecstasy. — Tzeentch

You know you're describing MAGA, right?

In your local neighbourhood -

The NYT image below shows federal agents - armed with battlefield technology and weapons – suppressor (silencer), MAWL, M-LOK, Magwell, dump pouch – on a doorstep in Minneapolis.



They entered the house, violating the Fourth Amendment. Her husband was arrested and ordered released four days later

Watch the brief video here for more details

You know you're describing MAGA, right? — Questioner

Yes. Are you aware that I'm describing you also?

Yes. Are you aware that I'm describing you also? — Tzeentch

Don't make the mistake of thinking you know me. You don't know me at all.

But I could fill a book with cultish behavior of MAGA

I don't think MAGA is evil - just manipulated

But I could fill a book with cultish behavior of MAGA — Questioner

Just checked - there have been a couple of books written about it -

Cult OF MAGA: How Trump turned apathy into idolatry through white hot populism, tepid placations and stone cold lies.

The Cult of Trump: A Leading Cult Expert Explains How the President Uses Mind Control

Trump is being fetishized as the personification of pure evil... — Tzeentch

From the "tribal" perspective, that which divides the tribe is evil. And the designation is justified.

There is new video out of Alex Pretti which displays an earlier confrontation with ICE. In hit he spits at officers, kicks their vehicle enough to smash their taillights, and then yells “Hit me, MF!” “Pepper spray me, MF!” before being tackled by the agents, confirming that the violent reaction to their antics is what they want.



The man was murdered unjustly by ICE, but like all saints of the Anti-Trump Movement, he isn’t as amazing as that crowd is portraying him. He was a part of an organized and mentally ill cult of goons who spend their free time stalking and assaulting agents of the federal government.

Pretti assaulted federal agents?

I guess kicking off the tail lights warrants being executed by two agents firing multiple shots… and civil unrest due to what had already happened is justifiable. If laws and regulations are broken by federal agents, then why should the public take that like good little slaves? Going out and create chaos is justifiable, or else people can just bow down to the illegal state violence. It’s like people forget that ICE isn’t just breaking the law by shooting people, they break the law over and over. Why the fuck should people accept that? And why the fuck would any of that unrest justify execution?

The defensive whatsboutism about the ICE agents behavior, not just in this but in all areas is appalling and disgusting. There’s no ”sides” in this as if things were on equal standing, there’s the normal side and the fascist side. And I’m tired of hearing the utter bullshit omitting from the apologists of the Trump regime. There’s enough to warrant calling Trump’s regime fascist, we even have researchers on authoritarianism backing that up. So I will just say that anyone defending ICE and the Trump regime’s behavior will in my eyes be active supporters of what’s going on and through that be irrelevant to even engage with. Enough is enough, and I think the ones who agree should do the same. To stop feeding the attention addicts.