Are you asking what Milton may have thought and wanted his readers to think?

Are you asking what Milton may have thought and wanted his readers to think? — Ciceronianus

I'm asking both that and what people here think about my questions. I'm actually leading a book group on Paradise Lost tomorrow and figure any feedback I get here might help me design questions for the group (which I haven't thought up yet).

I just finished reading the Epic (I was motivated to read it by What in me is Dark by Oliver Reade), and It's likely some of the younger generation women in the group will be shocked by the sexism, but Adam is portrayed as quite a romantic character. He eats the apple because he knows Eve will be expelled from Eden and he loves her enough to share her punishment. Another question might be: Is the sexism involved in Eve being a "helpmate" for Adam and a weak sinner a mere reflection of the mores of the time, or did biblical (and Milton's) sexism reenforce and drive sexist mores?

I've always thought that if coercive violence is a bad thing and if laws are always enforced by coercive violence, utopia must be an anarchy (which would rule out heaven). I'm curious what others think.

Are revolutions doomed to fail? Will their perpetrators -- like Lucifer -- inevitably wish to replace the king instead of abolishing the kingdom? Can heaven be a utopia if it is ruled by a dictator? Shouldn't freedom be mandatory for utopias? — Ecurb

I'm not sure, i'd just like to point out that we can, and have, replaced rule by a king/Queen/oligarchy with the rule of law subject to democratic alteration. We perhaps haven't done it very well, and it's massively under attack at the moment, but it can be improved. First step to improving the robustness is to get rid of first part the post, perhaps.

I'm not sure, i'd just like to point out that we can, and have, replaced rule by a king/Queen/oligarchy with the rule of law subject to democratic alteration. We perhaps haven't done it very well, and it's massively under attack at the moment, but it can be improved. First step to improving the robustness is to get rid of first part the post, perhaps. — bert1

Good point, although the French Revolution suffered from some of the same problems as Satan's rebellion. Despite its problems, the American Revolution still stands as an example. My point about utopia and anarchy remains.

IN the chapter on Jefferson, Reade does point out his hypocrisy as a slave owner. His affair with Sally Hemmings began in Paris (to which she accompanied him). She was Jefferson's dead wife's half-sister (his father-in-law also had a slave mistress), and their affair began in Paris where Sally accompanied Jefferson as a ladies' maid to his daughter. She was only 14 or 15 at the time, and since slavery was illegal in France she and her brother Robert almost refused to return. Jefferson promised Sally's brother Robert he would free him if he returned (which both did). What promises Jefferson made to Sally have not been recorded. (Donald Trump's autocratic ambitions are clearly endangering the American Dream, and would have been reviled by Jefferson, who was a small-federal-government advocate.)

"The world was all before them..." Was paradise lost? Or gained? — Ecurb

With flora mystical and magical,
Eden’s botanical garden was blest,
So Eve, taking more than just the Apple,
Plucked off the loveliest of the best.

Thus it’s to Eve that we must give our thanks,
For Earth’s variety of fruits and plants,
For when she was out of Paradise thrown,
She stole all the flowers we’ve ever known.

Therewith, through sensuous beauty and grace,
Eve with Adam brought forth the human race,
But our world would never have come to be,
Had not God allowed them His mystery.

When they were banished from His bosom,
Eve saw more than just the Apple Blossom,
And took, on her way through Eden’s bowers,
Many wondrous plants and fruitful flowers.

Mighty God, upon seeing this great theft,
At first was angered, but soon smiled and wept,
For human nature was made in His name—
So He had no one but Himself to blame!

Yet still He made ready His thunderbolt,
As His Old Testament wrath cast its vote
To end this experiment gone so wrong—
But soon He felt the joy of life’s new song.

Eve had all the plants that she could carry;
God in His wisdom grew uncontrary.
Out of Eden she waved the flowered wands,
The seeds spilling upon the barren lands.

God held the lightning bolt already lit,
No longer knowing what to do with it,
So He threw it into the heart of Hell,
Forming of it a place where all was well.

Thus the world from molten fire had birth,
As Hell faded and was turned into Earth.
This He gave to Adam and Eve, with love,
For them and theirs to make a Heaven of.

From His bolt grew the Hawthorn and Bluebell,
And He be damned, for Eve stole these as well!
So He laughed and pretended not to see,
Retreating into eternity.

“So be it,” God said, when time was young,
“That such is the life My design has wrung,
For in their souls some part of Me has sprung—
So let them enjoy all the songs I’ve sung.

“Life was much too easy in Paradise,
And lacked therefore of any real meaning,
For without the lows there can be no highs—
All that remains is a dull flat feeling!


“There’s no Devil to blame for their great zest—
This mix of good and bad makes them best!
The human nature that makes them survive,
Also lets them feel very much alive.

“That same beastful soul that makes them glad
Does also make them seem a little bad.
If only I could strip the wrong from right,
But I cannot have the day without the night!”

So it was that with fertile delight Eve
Seeded the lifeless Earth for us to receive.
Though many flowers she had to leave behind,
These we have from the Mother of Mankind:

Eve gathered the amiable Jasmine,
Which soft exhales its breath of friendship,
And by a delicious fragrance in the night
Overpowers the stars with its sweet delight.

The Jasmine impregnates the dew each night
With its friendly perfume of good and right;
Thus morning’s incense carries its odour,
Keeping everyone in fresh good humor.

…

Paradise ruled by a dictator seems almost an oxymoron to me. And, I find it hard to think of a place where certain knowledge is forbidden as a paradise.

Milton's fondness for Cromwell makes me wonder whether he'd be adverse to that, though. Churchill thought Cromwell was a military dictator, and I tend to agree with him.

I think fathers used to be more dictatorial than they are now. Martin Luther was severely physically abused by his father, but he just laughed about it. Those people were hard core.

Paradise ruled by a dictator seems almost an oxymoron to me. — Ciceronianus

A "rulerless paradise", is an existence where either A.) you know all there is to know (ergo, there is nothing new left to ever learn or discover) or B.) nothing can go wrong (ie. there is no risk or danger, ergo no excitement or thrill). Both of which sound like Hell. But to each their own.

Paradise ruled by a dictator seems almost an oxymoron to me. And, I find it hard to think of a place where certain knowledge is forbidden as a paradise.

Milton's fondness for Cromwell makes me wonder whether he'd be adverse to that, though. Churchill thought Cromwell was a military dictator, and I tend to agree with him. — Ciceronianus

Cromwell may have been like Satan in Paradise Lost. Satan's rebellion is seen as at least somewhat noble. But he wants "to rule in hell", instead of promoting freedom for all. That's his downfall.

AI Overview
The verse provided is from the poem "Paradise is not Lost", attributed to an author using the pseudonym Ecurb (which appears to be "Bruce" spelled backward).
The full poem was shared in a 2023 discussion thread on The Philosophy Forum:
The poem explores a reimagining of the traditional biblical narrative of Eve in the Garden of Eden. It suggests that when Eve was cast out of Paradise, she took with her not just the forbidden fruit, but also a multitude of plants and flowers from the garden, bringing the Earth's variety of flora into existence. The full poem can be found in the referenced document.
Paradise is not Lost - The Philosophy Forum
3m. PoeticUniverse. 1.7k. "The world was all before them..." Was paradise lost? Or gained? — Ecurb. With flora mystical and magica...

The Philosophy Forum
Paradise Lost | Summary & Facts | Britannica
Dec 1, 2025 — John Milton (born December 9, 1608, London, England—died November 8?, 1674, London?) was an English poet, pamphleteer, ...

Encyclopedia Britannica

Paradise Lost: Book 1 (1674 version) | The Poetry Foundation
O how unlike the place from whence they fell! Breaking the horrid silence thus began. In dubious Battel on the Plains of Heav'n, A...

Poetry Foundation

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Huh? The full poem is 300 pages long, The bit I provided is the last verse. The author is MIlton, not me.

It's been a very long time since I read Milton; I just plugged 1 stanza into Google Search and copied/pasted what it spit out. I was surprised by what it put at the top of the results (pasted above). I'm afraid I'm one of those modern readers who lost the taste for very long difficult poetry -- or very long difficult prose, for that matter. As soon as they become available, I'll buy a set of those literature chips that are implanted in the brain, allowing the transfer of long texts (like all of Dryden or Milton) into one's memory without having to spend weeks actually reading the tedious texts. I hope they work in 80 year old brains.

I recently read this book. It was a real treat. I don't often finish a book thinking that I should read it again immediately. But I do still resist reading the actual poem.
I realize this is too late for your book group, but I'm sure there was a lively discussion - I hope so, anyway.
Some random comments.

It does seem that Satan is the most interesting character, and I'm sure Milton intended that. Satan could not tempt us if it was always clear that he was a demon. I do wonder how some of the people that are in the book reconciled their fascination with him with the threat that the revolution could turn sour, let us say. It doesn't seem to have put any of them off their projects.

Good point, although the French Revolution suffered from some of the same problems as Satan's rebellion. — Ecurb

Yes. In some ways, the greatest danger is in the moment of success. It's interesting to reflect on how Wordsworth reflected on this problem, by comparison with Milton. Both ended up as conservatives, though in rather different ways.

Paradise ruled by a dictator seems almost an oxymoron to me. And, I find it hard to think of a place where certain knowledge is forbidden as a paradise. — Ciceronianus

In the case of Paradise, since God's commandments are always good and right, it will always be good and right to obey. The only problems are our failures to grasp that. (In the background, of course, we have the Euthyphro problem, whether God's commandments are good and right because they are his commandments, or he decides what to command on the basis of his knowledge of what is good and right.)
The prohibition against eating the apple is a puzzle. In the Bible story, God fears that Adam and Eve will acquire knowledge of what is good and right; he cites a concern that they would become like gods as a result. I can't see that this makes any sense. In any case, in the event, they ate and clearly did not become gods.

Are revolutions doomed to fail? — Ecurb

I think it is dangerous to generalize here. The American Revolution. The Scientific Revolution. The Glorious Revolution of 1688 in the UK. Though much depends on what you think success is.

"The world was all before them..." Was paradise lost? Or gained? — Ecurb

I think that those final lines strongly suggest that Milton wants us to think that it was gained. As I remember it God responds to Satan's defection by saying that He will turn this disaster to good use. We have to assume that He was more or less in control throughout.
But there are questions. Assuming that Adam and Eve do acquire knowledge of good and evil, are we happy to say that they were better off as a result -- bearing in mind the punishments that God inflicts on them. Is the innocence of animals and small children a better, happier state than human life? But we do not think of humans who lack moral sense in a radical way as "better off" or even "happier" than ordinary people. I really don't know how one might even think about how to answer that question. Though I think it very likely that Milton would answer that a moral sense is essential to being human.
If Satan is an essential part of human life, is God complicit with him. Is it possible that God was complicit in the initial rebellion?

If Satan is an essential part of human life, is God complicit with him. Is it possible that God was complicit in the initial rebellion? — Ludwig V

If God is omniscient, he surely knew what was going to happen at the creation. By the way, I posted about some of those ideas in the thread comparing scientific and religious worldviews in The Lounge. You might check it out.

Personally, I don't think God's foreknowledge contradicts free will, but others disagree.

Personally, I don't think God's foreknowledge contradicts free will, but others disagree. — Ecurb

I agree with you.

If I'm right aht Milton's defence of God, that the Fall was, in the end, a Good Thing, seems to me the deepest problem here.