If brain capacities are not the result of our evolution, what is your alternative explanation?
— Questioner

The question is improperly framed as it presumes that morality can be explained by neurology.

WE learn more about the development of moral codes by studying the development of moral codes than by studying the human brain. .
— Ecurb — Wayfarer

The proposition put forward in the OP is that there is "no secular basis for morality."

This implies that all morality grows out of a religious tradition.

No. The morality came first. We evolved the neurological capacities for it. Our evolution as a social species refined it. Toss in the capacity to invent supernatural beings, and the evolution of a theory of mind, and we see the rise of things like religious rituals, myths, taboos, and burial practices.

As the practices spread, politics enters the fray, and voila, organized religion.

The proposition put forward in the OP is that there is "no secular basis for morality."

This implies that all morality grows out of a religious tradition.

No. The morality came first. We evolved the neurological capacities for it. Our evolution as a social species refined it — Questioner

Straight out of the Dawkins Dennett playbook. Evolution displaces religion becuase it's scientific. You clearly haven't understood anything I've said about it, so no use repeating myself.

You've moved to a teleological account. Teleology explains what counts as flourishing. It does not explain why flourishing is obligatory. — Banno

Yes, that seems fair. I guess the more observant among us would probably say: surely no one would willingly go against God if they had certain knowledge or faith?

In addition, one cannot act otherwise than in accord with the structure of reality. Both kicking the pup and feeding it are possible; Either is "in accordance with the structure of reality itself". "Acting in accordance with the structure of reality itself" tells us nothing about which to choose. — Banno

That made me laugh. I'll need to think about it.

...surely no one would willingly go against God if they had certain knowledge or faith? — Tom Storm

Ask Lucifer...

That made me laugh. I'll need to think about it. — Tom Storm

Worth considering in terms of "flourishing", to see how it doesn't help. We could feed the pup or eat it. Both incur flourishing. Which is obligatory?

You clearly haven't understood anything I've said — Wayfarer

I feel the same way.

Surely, you must realize that the idea of something being written in the heart, of wisdom being found there, crosses all cultures and transcends time. — Questioner

Something being "written..." is probably common in cultures that have had written language for some time.

However, that is not the case with Native American cultures at that time. So "written in the heart" does come across as an odd turn of phrase for a Native American, and more likely a European's paraphrase of something said by a Native American.

So "written in the heart" does come across as an odd turn of phrase for a Native American — wonderer1

Actually, this was my original quote -

"You white folk need a Big Book to tell you what is right, but what is right is engraved upon my heart."

Nevertheless, the sentiment remains

No. The morality came first. We evolved the neurological capacities for it. Our evolution as a social species refined it. Toss in the capacity to invent supernatural beings, and the evolution of a theory of mind, and we see the rise of things like religious rituals, myths, taboos, and burial practices — Questioner

That depends on what you mean by "morality". Obviously, all female mammals (and many non-mammals) care for their children and give them scarce resources they could use themselves. Does this constitute "morality"? Are all behaviors of which you approve forms of "morality"?

The4 dictionary defines morality as

principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour:

. Based on the spelling of "behaviour", we cannot fully trust this dictionary, but "principles" are distinct from actions. A mother may nurse her children without considering the "principles" concerning this behavior. Indeed, "principles" are clearly based on language and are clearly cultural, not exclusively "neurological".

As far as which came first -- how can we know? AS far as we can tell from studying stone age groups alive in the recent past, most principles have supernatural (i.e. religious or mythological) facets. It is likely, of course, that such principles derive in part from natural (biological) urges, like the principle that mothers should care for their children. Buit the principles themselves are clearly cultural.

That depends on what you mean by "morality". Obviously, all female mammals (and many non-mammals) care for their children and give them scarce resources they could use themselves. Does this constitute "morality"? Are all behaviors of which you approve forms of "morality"? — Ecurb

Morality looks at questions of right and wrong. The ability to judge between right and wrong must come before any conclusion about what is right and wrong.

Based on the spelling of "behaviour", we cannot fully trust this dictionary — Ecurb

Lol, why not? That's how we spell it here, in Canada, and in the UK, too

Indeed, "principles" are clearly based on language and are clearly cultural — Ecurb

even chimps have principles about fairness and social rules

not exclusively "neurological". — Ecurb

I've never used the word "exclusively" - I've only referred to the original source of our morality - clearly, culture plays a role in shaping principles

As far as which came first -- how can we know? — Ecurb

trust the science?

Chimps have behaviors. We cannot tell if they have "principles". Eusocial (haplodiplontic) insects practice altruistic behaviors, too. Are these based on moral principles?

Chimps have behaviors. We cannot tell if they have "principles". Eusocial (haplodiplontic) insects practice altruistic behaviors, too. Are these based on moral principles? — Ecurb

the point is that humans and chimps are closely related, and notions of right and wrong first evolved in an ancestor we shared.

We are not closely related to insects, so whatever "similarities" we find between us and them is an example of convergent evolution and outside of this discussion

I did not read anything in the book that suggested this. — Questioner

This account does. I understand you don't see that, but it was a pretty common trope. James Mooney is a really, really good example of this with the Kiowa and other tribes. This isn't even to say there's nothing in what you're saying, but it is certainly not as simple as this would suggest (though, I take it you understand that anyway).

Overtly? — Questioner

Yes, sorry. Yeah, I am well aware - but a Christian missionary reporting this is extremely suspect given:

"Jeremiah 31:33 (Old Testament – “New Covenant”)
This is the foundational text:

“I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

"Romans 2:14–15 (Paul, New Testament)
Paul extends the idea beyond Israel:

“They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness…”

2 Corinthians 3:3
Paul explicitly contrasts stone tablets with the human heart:

“You are a letter from Christ… written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.”

There's a rather direct and unavoidable intimation in this specific case, that perhaps a Christian Missionary would using overly (to them) Christian language to subvert the existing prejudices among other whites. This also happened in Ireland, with, as mentioned, Paul Mooney and many others across time. The syncretisation of South American is one of the biggest and tragic abject moral failures the western world ever undertook and it was almost explicitly for this purpose. Just giving context for why my suggestion is not wild, and may be supported. Many of your examples fail the directness test. Particularly the Egyptian one, as it doesn't even say the same thing. The concept of a Soul isn't quite as specific and direct as that which we are discussing, but you're not wrong either - its a common theme among all thinkers. Even in the modern, secular world many claims to morality rest on this assumption that, without any explanation, humans are inherently given moral precepts.

No, the "noble savage" concept is a European creation that reduces and simplifies the sophisticated societies the Indigenous peoples developed before the settlers got here. — Questioner

If you'd put "Yes, " at the start, this would be a totally sound response.

but a Christian missionary reporting this is extremely suspect — AmadeusD

The quote did not come from a Christian missionary, it came from my readings about the Mohawk Nation and Sir William Johnson.

You seem to be intent on dismissing the idea that Indigenous peoples could come up with heart-driven philosophies on their own. I'm not sure why.

have you ever heard of "The Words That Come Before All Else."

https://www.imaginalfutures.com/islands/thewordsthatcomebeforeallelse

Written in a language older than English, these verses were/are recited at the beginning of every gathering. (Yes, it takes a while to recite. The colonials used to complain about all the "time-wasting" rituals of the Natives. The Europeans just wanted to get down to business.)

Haudenosaunee Thanksgiving Address

The People

Today we have gathered and we see that the cycles of life continue. We have been given the duty to live in balance and harmony with each other and all living things. So now, we bring our minds together as one as we give greetings and thanks to each other as people.

Now our minds are one.

The Earth Mother

We are all thankful to our Mother, the Earth, for she gives us all that we need for life. She supports our feet as we walk about upon her. It gives us joy that she continues to care for us as she has from the beginning of time. To our mother, we send greetings and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Waters

We give thanks to all the waters of the world for quenching our thirst and providing us with strength. Water is life. We know its power in many forms- waterfalls and rain, mists and streams, rivers and oceans. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to the spirit of Water.

Now our minds are one.

The Fish

We turn our minds to all the Fish life in the water. They were instructed to cleanse and purify the water. They also give themselves to us as food. We are grateful that we can still find pure water. So, we turn now to the Fish and send our greetings and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Plants

Now we turn toward the vast fields of Plant life. As far as the eye can see, the Plants grow, working many wonders. They sustain many life forms. With our minds gathered together, we give thanks and look forward to seeing Plant life for many generations to come.

Now our minds are one.

The Food Plants

With one mind, we turn to honor and thank all the Food Plants we harvest from the garden. Since the beginning of time, the grains, vegetables, beans and berries have helped the people survive. Many other living things draw strength from them too. We gather all the Plant Foods together as one and send them a greeting of thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Medicine Herbs

Now we turn to all the Medicine herbs of the world. From the beginning they were instructed to take away sickness. They are always waiting and ready to heal us. We are happy there are still among us those special few who remember how to use these plants for healing. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to the Medicines and to the keepers of the Medicines.

Now our minds are one.

The Animals

We gather our minds together to send greetings and thanks to all the Animal life in the world. They have many things to teach us as people. We are honored by them when they give up their lives so we may use their bodies as food for our people. We see them near our homes and in the deep forests. We are glad they are still here and we hope that it will always be so.

Now our minds are one

The Trees

We now turn our thoughts to the Trees. The Earth has many families of Trees who have their own instructions and uses. Some provide us with shelter and shade, others with fruit, beauty and other useful things. Many people of the world use a Tree as a symbol of peace and strength. With one mind, we greet and thank the Tree life.

Now our minds are one.

The Birds

We put our minds together as one and thank all the Birds who move and fly about over our heads. The Creator gave them beautiful songs. Each day they remind us to enjoy and appreciate life. The Eagle was chosen to be their leader. To all the Birds-from the smallest to the largest-we send our joyful greetings and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Four Winds

We are all thankful to the powers we know as the Four Winds. We hear their voices in the moving air as they refresh us and purify the air we breathe. They help us to bring the change of seasons. From the four directions they come, bringing us messages and giving us strength. With one mind, we send our greetings and thanks to the Four Winds.

Now our minds are one.

The Thunderers

Now we turn to the west where our grandfathers, the Thunder Beings, live. With lightning and thundering voices, they bring with them the water that renews life. We are thankful that they keep those evil things made by Okwiseres underground. We bring our minds together as one to send greetings and thanks to our Grandfathers, the Thunderers.

Now our minds are one.

The Sun

We now send greetings and thanks to our eldest Brother, the Sun. Each day without fail he travels the sky from east to west, bringing the light of a new day. He is the source of all the fires of life. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to our Brother, the Sun.

Now our minds are one.

Grandmother Moon

We put our minds together to give thanks to our oldest Grandmother, the Moon, who lights the night-time sky. She is the leader of woman all over the world, and she governs the movement of the ocean tides. By her changing face we measure time, and it is the Moon who watches over the arrival of children here on Earth. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to our Grandmother, the Moon.

Now our minds are one.

The Stars

We give thanks to the Stars who are spread across the sky like jewelry. We see them in the night, helping the Moon to light the darkness and bringing dew to the gardens and growing things. When we travel at night, they guide us home. With our minds gathered together as one, we send greetings and thanks to the Stars.

Now our minds are one.

The Enlightened Teachers

We gather our minds to greet and thank the enlightened Teachers who have come to help throughout the ages. When we forget how to live in harmony, they remind us of the way we were instructed to live as people. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to these caring teachers.

Now our minds are one.

The Creator

Now we turn our thoughts to the Creator, or Great Spirit, and send greetings and thanks for all the gifts of Creation. Everything we need to live a good life is here on this Mother Earth. For all the love that is still around us, we gather our minds together as one and send our choicest words of greetings and thanks to the Creator.

Now our minds are one.

Closing Words

We have now arrived at the place where we end our words. Of all the things we have named, it was not our intention to leave anything out. If something was forgotten, we leave it to each individual to send such greetings and thanks in their own way.

Now our minds are one.

You seem to be intent on dismissing the idea that Indigenous peoples could come up with heart-driven philosophies on their own. I'm not sure why. — Questioner

No. I am not. You are not reading me clearly, at all. I don't wish to continue this.

At 346 pages, it is a detailed look. It was written by Rev. John Heckewelder, a Christian missionary who learned their language and lived among them for many years — Questioner

At 346 pages, it is a detailed look. It was written by Rev. John Heckewelder, a Christian missionary who learned their language and lived among them for many years — Questioner

I never said that quote was from that book

the point is that humans and chimps are closely related, and notions of right and wrong first evolved in an ancestor we shared.

We are not closely related to insects, so whatever "similarities" we find between us and them is an example of convergent evolution and outside of this discussion — Questioner

"Principles" and "notions" (or intuitions, or feelings) are not identical. Maybe chimps have religions -- maybe ants and bees do. There's no way of knowing. But if they are capable of "principles" they are capable of religion.