Good point, I agree. She wants to go kayaking..

So let's continue with your approach. She looks on the internet to find a kayaking club. She can do that because she can type and read and understand the words on the screen. Then she phones up the club and arranges a first lesson. Cool! Still no need for support.

Yep.

Under what circumstances might someone need support?

Do they need support?

Under what circumstances might someone need support? — bert1

Some people certainly do.

Yep.

Is there an argument here?

I'm not sure. We seem to broadly agree, but you said my thinking is medical model, and that I delimit people by saying they can't do things, and you seemed to suggest these were bad. Also, you're not answering my questions very often.

I'm interested in when you think someone needs support. I think it's when they can't do something that they want or need to do without that support. Which is a functional test and involves the word 'can't' which you seem to object to (although I have never met a disabled person who objects to the use of this word). So I'm interested in an alternative approach. It might help me a lot with my work if I've been getting this wrong.

you're not answering my questions very often. — bert1

Yeah, I am. Maybe not in the way you expected.

A person needs support to achieve some outcome if, as things stand, they are unable to achieve the goal on their own.

No "can't".

A person needs support to achieve some outcome if, as things stand, they are unable to achieve the goal on their own. — Banno

OK, we agree. I see no great difference between 'unable' and 'can't'.

Seems you are doing what is appropriate, working with what your clients want and providing for them as needed.

Carer training and interaction is usually, mostly medical, as it should be; but this leaves them with only the language of the medical model with which to explain the complex human interactions that they have to deal with directly - doctors and other medical professionals are usually able to abstract themselves from the nitty gritty, nurses and carers have to deal with bed pans and tears.

The social model, and especially the capabilities approach, provide language that can be used to deal with the humanity of those one cares for, in a more "holistic" way. That is, it emphasises the ethical dimension.

It's a different way to think and talk about what you already do.

Here's an article from a few months back - starting with quote from Charlie Kirk - about disability as the canary in the coal mine of social policy.

The US right is coming for disabled people. Here’s why that threatens everyone

It makes pretty sad reading.

This quote struck me as salient to this thread:

“Disabled people were not always marginalized; we were incorporated into society in the ancient past,” said Dr Alexandra F Morris, a lecturer in classical studies at the University of Lincoln who studies disability in ancient Egypt. “We have the means to create and return to a more equitable society if we wish to, but it is our modern-day thinking that sees disability as marginalized … and a burden.”

doctors and other medical professionals are usually able to abstract themselves from the nitty gritty — Banno

I know a couple that do lose a fair bit of nights sleep over their patients. Not the kind of doctors that cut up rat brains, but the ones handling dudes usually strive to abstract themselves but only succeeds so-so.

i maintain that you are confused between a definition and a model.

The definition of 'disability' in terms of things people can't do (or unable to do if you see a distinction) is independent of the models. You can't be disabled if you can do anything without help. This is descriptive. The models embody values that the definition doesn't.

Regarding my training, i have only been trained by disabled people themselves, who freely and happily say they can't do things.

You can look up information on it if you think the Australian system could benefit from America's greater experience and wisdom. I work in an emergency room so I'm up close and personal with the needs of my community. I have a list of local charities that I've collected over the years. They're all religious, go figure. People on disability don't need my list. Undocumented people is where the real need is. — frank

No problem figuring out why it is religious organizations filling a social need. They have an organization and only need to add to what they are doing. Non-religious people fund the efforts made by the religious organization, or they get personally involved when the non-religious person sees someone who can use help.

I joined grandparents, wanting to change how Oregon was managing a bureaucratic foster care program. It was a lot of work, and took a lot of time and money. We were all fighting for custody of our grandchildren. We had to work with the media to make our fight known, so that others could join us. We had to rent a building for a meeting so all us strangers could work together. It is overwhelming, and not everyone has the time and energy to do all that.

But us non religious people show up at demonstrations, and we might contact our representatives on city, county, state, and federal levels. The secular folks use the government and law to get needs met, so I hope your comment was not intended to say we do not care and do not take action.

I'm not suggesting that there are not things people with disabilities cannot do. Rather, I'm pointing out that how we talk and think about what folk can't do serves to exacerbate the problem, making other things harder for them to do; and that we can as an alternative refocus on wha they are able to do, to the benefit of all.

Australia's health system is far from perfect, but the idea that we would do better to emulate the system in the USA can only be met with derision.

Interestingly, my local government - I live in the Australian Capital Territory - recently took over control of a large religious hospital because of the incompetence of the Catholic administration. Socialism at work, for the benefit of all.

But us non religious people show up at demonstrations, and we might contact our representatives on city, county, state, and federal levels. The secular folks use the government and law to get needs met, so I hope your comment was not intended to say we do not care and do not take action. — Athena

That's nice. But in the middle of night, some Latina lady is being discharged from the emergency department, and I know she needs some help. I give her a list of groups in the area who she can turn to. None of them are non-religious. I'd be overjoyed to put a non-religious organization on there. There just aren't any. Even freakin' Habitat for Humanity is a Christian organization.

That's nice. But in the middle of night, some Latina lady is being discharged from the emergency department, and I know she needs some help. I give her a list of groups in the area who she can turn to. None of them are non-religious. I'd be overjoyed to put a non-religious organization on there. There just aren't any. Even freakin' Habitat for Humanity is a Christian organization. — frank

We have transportation for medical needs, and we pay for it in part by taxing cigarettes. I guess that might be socialism. I don't want everyone to know we have free medical care for low-income people because I don't want everyone moving here.

I started the activation for help for the homeless when Reagan was in office. And I sure am not religious, but that is also why I know the difficulty of getting anything done without an organization. My sister has outdone me by doing far more for the homeless than I have. She shows up at the hospital, and she fights for the homeless, getting what they need. She ran into others who help but I don't know if they are religious or not.

We have done so much for the homeless since I began drawing attention to the problem. Back in the day, when everyone believed Reagan was right when he said we don't have homeless people, just bums. Despite all we have done, the problem continues to get worse because when people learn how this area helps people, they come here. Because of the influx of people needing help, you can hear horror stories. We just can not do enough, but right now, we are sheltering hundreds of people in tiny shelters. This is not ideal, but it is better than nothing.

I want to address disabilities because yesterday was a terrible day for me and I don't know if I should give up or push forward.

Two things concern me at the moment. So many of the homeless people are like feral cats. I think this because of drug addictions and mental disability, and just being on the street too long. AI says

"Humans becoming like feral cats" refers to individuals exhibiting extreme independence, wariness, self-reliance, and difficulty trusting, often due to severe trauma, neglect, or isolation, mirroring the cautious survival behaviors of cats raised without human socialization, but it can also be a metaphorical description of a resilient, low-maintenance personality type, exploring themes of self-domestication and societal norms.

For many this begins with growing up without learning social skills and an understanding of how we are organized and how to be part of "we". They can not get jobs so they fall further and further outside of the "social we". They are refused help and even rejected from nutrition sites for seniors because they are unpleasant to be around. Our Mission is doing a better job of helping these people, but I don't think we are doing enough.

Jobs are an important part of socializing human beings, and I wish we were more like Germany in this respect. We need to create jobs for low-skilled people. Goodwill and St Vincent stores do that, but it isn't enough.

Here is what Germany is doing....

Yes, German helps people get jobs by boosting career prospects in Germany and globally, especially in engineering, automotive, and tech, while also enabling roles in international companies needing German speakers (customer service, remote work) and aiding refugees' integration via government initiatives and employer programs focused on skills matching and language training. The language proficiency opens doors to specialized sectors and international business, supported by German agencies and programs focused on skills recognition and job placement.

.

The next disability that directly impacts me is that some of us older people are getting locked out by technology. I tried to address that problem yesterday with our local library, and I totally failed. Here is what AI has to say....

Older people often feel pushed out due to ageism in workplaces, leading to forced retirements and exclusion, while in social settings, age-related changes, technology gaps, and societal shifts can cause isolation, making them feel irrelevant or unheard, impacting their sense of belonging and mental health. This can manifest as feeling ignored, being excluded from activities, or even displaying irritability as a sign of underlying stress and disengagement, with some studies showing many over-55s feel the job market is closed to them.

I wish that explanation didn't focus so much on having a job. Being old can suck because of increasing physical problems, and losing family and friends, and therefore being very alone. I keep moving forward because I am terrified of not having a social life. We need places where we can go that do not have barriers to participation, such as the blanket blank technology that is everywhere and the cold, uncaring attitude that if a person can't get past the hurdle, that person can go home and stay there.

Only our community center, which was once a senior center, has employees who understand the importance of including everyone. They are getting old with us. However, the employees at the library are young and clueless, and just "hoping" that everyone gets good service is not going to get the desired result. There needs to be sensitivity training. I want the people at the library to be as sensitive to technology being a barrier as the older employees at what was once a senior center understand the problem and care. Imagine losing your family and friends and reaching out to the community by going to the library, and not being able to get past the technology. :cry: