• 0 thru 9
    936
    A Leftist chess game: 4 more years of Trump (and “Neo-Fascism”?)... OR... 8+ years of Biden/Harris (and “Neo-Liberalism”?). The Texas hold ‘em, all-or-nothing gamble of the 2020 USA presidential election... as viewed from the Left.

    First off, maybe take a look at this article/editorial from Jacobin...

    (It is entitled “It’s Fine to Feel Like Shit About Joe Biden and the DNC” if that’s a quick snapshot).

    So in a nutshell... Bernie Sanders supporter here (USA resident, independent voter) licking my wounds and wounded pride. Generally, a “leftist” or progressive on many issues. Trump makes me nauseous. Feeling physically sick of seeing him and hearing him. He’s not a racist, but he plays one on TV. (When he finishes his territorial pissings all over law, the Constitution, common decency, common sense, etc, someone please wake me up. Or don’t). He hasn’t started a war... yet. Give him time, and he might bomb a country for insulting his daughter’s hair or something. Seems about as stable and nontoxic as mercury mixed with uranium. Probably would take that as a compliment. (Hope that is way off-base, not betting on it).

    Maybe in September 2019, a case could have been theoretically made that he was nowhere as bad as the Left “Never-Trump!-ers” made him. Not now, in my view. He’s dropped the mask, literally and figuratively. (Wearing a mask smears his orange makeup). He didn’t even wait for a second term to turn into MR Hyde. That nasty virus forced his hand maybe. Such is life...

    If my voting inclinations were a horse race, right now it’d be a three horse photo finish between “Dud-lee DoodooRight DNC”, “The MAGAt Express”, and “Fuck ‘em All!” (Did I mention that we have multiple personalities? Lol.)

    The only way in hell I’d vote for 4 more years of MAGAt-land, is as a potential strategy to possibly clear the way for a Progressive surge. (Yea, I know... keep dreaming, snowflake. Watch some more Disney musicals. Whatever. Maybe the Progs should just form another party already. Trying to fix the DNC is like patching the Titanic, only less logical and more selfish).

    This is probably inviting screaming from all sides (though Trump supporters will say that voting for him will DEFINITELY help the Left in the long run, lol), but please convince me what is actually best for the USA... and by extension the entire world.

    Even as a leftist, I admire the Conservatives who say exactly how and where and when Trump is full of BS. I’m more likely to be convinced by a “warts-and-all” real politik view than a load of Holy Crusade propaganda. Hysterical “will no one think of the children?!?” party-line liberalism will likely just fly over my head. There’s no Luke Skywalker vs Death Star here, unfortunately. Nor Sarah Conner vs the Terminator. Not even The Little Mermaid vs the Sea Witch.

    If it’s not already clear, I find the Biden/Harris combo a round trip ticket to nowhere, though the scenery might be nicer. Call them the party of Stallin’. They might have found the link between Neo-liberals and Neo-conservatives. Yay/yawn.

    So, if you can be arsed... please try to convince me not to mail in a blank ballot with a dead fish wrapped inside, if there’s any mailboxes left. (Because “Hope”... whatever that is... sleeps with the fishes Under the Sea with Ariel, lol).

    (Trying to think of what kind of poll to add, if any).

    EDIT: Or... which is worse (for the country in general, and from the perspective of the Left)? The acute illness and toxic bullshit of four more years of Trump? Or the somewhat slower blood drain and chronic wasting illness that is the current Democratic party, currently using Joe Biden as spokesman?
  • tim wood
    5.5k
    Interesting thoughts, but the time for them has passed and you really have fewer choices than you think. Let's tally them: 1) B/H, 2) T/P - uh, no. 3) neither - uh, no. Leaves B/H.

    Let's do a clearly better or clearly worse comparison (emphasis on clearly), B/H and predecessors. Starting with Truman. You decide.

    Truman
    Eisenhower
    Kennedy
    Johnson
    Nixon
    Ford
    Carter
    Reagan
    Bush
    Clinton
    Bush
    Obama

    Imo, B/H clearly better than some, but not clearly worse than any. And arguably the moment has the potential for greatness in pandemic management, economy, the increasing colorization of America, the environment, and more.

    Vanilla is all there is. And vanilla is a) actually pretty good, and b) has potential with add-ins.

    I do not think Biden is good for eight years. He may even not be good for one. Harris as president? That does not seem a necessarily bad thing to me. And we know you wanted strawberry, but that's not an option. So, to be a little unkind, get over yourself, grow up, vote for Biden-Harris, and if you care as you claim to, do some of the work of making the world a better place yourself, as much as you can.
  • Echarmion
    1.5k
    The only way in hell I’d vote for 4 more years of MAGAt-land, is as a potential strategy to possibly clear the way for a Progressive surge.0 thru 9

    It seems increasingly likely that, after 4 more years of Trump, there will not be another election that deserves the name.

    Not, mind you, because I think Trump will single-handedly remake the system and turn himself into the God Emperor. Rather because the powers that be in the GOP seem to have decided that now is as good a time as any to do away with having to deal with the opinions of poor people.
  • 0 thru 9
    936
    Let's do a clearly better or clearly worse comparison (emphasis on clearly), B/H and predecessors. Starting with Truman. You decide.tim wood

    Ok, fair enough. Biden if elected might (MIGHT) do better than some on that list. Maybe. And no quibble about douchiness of Hairy S. Trumpman.

    Vanilla is all there is. And vanilla is a) actually pretty good, and b) has potential with add-ins.

    I do not think Biden is good for eight years. He may even not be good for one. Harris as president? That does not seem a necessarily bad thing to me. And we know you wanted strawberry, but that's not an option.
    tim wood

    Vanilla, huh? Ice cream? So-so metaphor for a world in meltdown. No offense, but I prefer this one from the article linked:

    It helps make the whole process into exactly what Ohio state senator Nina Turner described: “It’s like saying to somebody, ‘You have a bowl of shit in front of you, and all you’ve got to do is eat half of it instead of the whole thing.’ It’s still shit.”

    get over yourself, grow up, vote for Biden-Harristim wood
    Aww gee, Dad... do I GOTTA? You didn’t make Wally vote for Biden! :razz: Thanks for the smug advice! No sale this time, sorry. Try again if you’d like.

    if you care as you claim totim wood

    I didn’t claim to care. I was ranting and venting. Besides, the Democrats are the caring ones. They play the “good cop” so well. Bad Republicans... boooooo!
  • 0 thru 9
    936
    It seems increasingly likely that, after 4 more years of Trump, there will not be another election that deserves the name.Echarmion

    Well, I never promised that this kamikaze mission would be without any risks.

    . Rather because the powers that be in the GOP seem to have decided that now is as good a time as any to do away with having to deal with the opinions of poor people.Echarmion

    The Dems at least pretend to care. Guess that is worth something. But as you may remember, Trump won the last election by gobbling up the “forgotten voters”, especially in key states. Trump now is like a wounded animal, imho. Hurt, but even more desperate and dangerous. If the Dems start bad-mouthing Trump supporters and the like, they may blow an easy victory. We shall see...
  • creativesoul
    9k
    I didn’t claim to care.0 thru 9

    So why ought any of us care what you think?
  • creativesoul
    9k
    At least act like to understand Bernie... seeing how you claim to be a supporter. Clearly you do not grasp what he has stood for all these years.

    You wanna know what to do. Ask Bernie.
  • 0 thru 9
    936
    So why ought any of us care what you think?creativesoul

    Well... Despite the personal references to myself in the OP, I really DON’T wish to make this all about me. If it helps a little, substitute the words “disaffected progressive” for any personal pronouns. And by the way... for whatever it may be worth, I do happen to care. For my sake, and for all. Would showing my bleeding heart make a difference?

    I speak only for myself of course, but I imagine that there are millions on the Left who are disaffected. And millions more on the right who are sick of Trump.

    At least act like to understand Bernie... seeing how you claim to be a supporter. Clearly you do not grasp what he has stood for all these years.

    You wanna know what to do. Ask Bernie.
    creativesoul

    Gee whiz, please if you don’t mind... thanks for your reply but could you put just a little more effort into a response? (instead of merely lobbing some verbal hand grenades that aren’t even slightly inspiring or humorous.) Next time I have dinner with Bernie, I’ll ask for his honest opinion, lol. Yes, we all know what he said at the DNC. I still respect him and might do the same in his place. But I’m not in his place.
  • creativesoul
    9k


    If you cannot see the need to do whatever can be done to remove president Trump from office, then there's not much more I can say to convince you to vote Biden/Harris.
  • 0 thru 9
    936


    Thanks for playing along. I can totally see your reasoning, because half my mind (more or less) is in the same ballpark. I’m just trying to imagine the future with Biden at the helm of this sinking ship. If Biden/Harris is somewhat close to the relatively stable (if perhaps too war-loving, hypocritical, and bitterly disappointing) Obama years... then maybe that is the best port in this storm. Honestly, my crystal ball and compass were lost at sea years ago, and I’m left only with charts and graphs... most of them distressing. And the wind is blowing the pitiless waves higher, and one wonders what drowning feels like.
  • 0 thru 9
    936
    The choice of Kamala Harris over Elizabeth Warren is symbolic at least of the DNC path now. It’s like they are telling their corporate backers: “Don’t worry, nothing has changed. We are back in control”.

    Our tax dollars, campaign contributions, and futures are being funneled to these corporations... so therefore we should financially own these same corporations? At least in part? Right? Ahhh, the hypocrisy of “corporate socialism”... but everyone else can hunt their own rats. Yummy.

    Maybe Elizabeth Warren didn’t want to be VP under Biden? Even with the good chance of becoming president. Who knows. Maybe we’ll find out one day. These days one doesn’t have to wait very long for someone to spill the beans.

    And speaking of Trump being desperate in a post above... what are the chances the he pulls a last minute switch at the VP position? How about Ivanka Trump as VP? A woman to counter the Dems VP? He absolutely trusts her it appears, and perhaps only her. And she’s cuter than Mike Pence. And barely legal, lol. (To serve as VP age-wise that is: 38).

    And perhaps most appealing of all to Donald: the chance of a TRUMP DYNASTY. A real life Game of Thrones! It’s a crazy idea... but it fits right in with the last four years. Stay (de)tuned...
  • ssu
    3.3k
    So, if you can be arsed... please try to convince me not to mail in a blank ballot with a dead fish wrapped inside, if there’s any mailboxes left.0 thru 9
    You doing nothing else than making one day more miserable to some postal workers (who likely will get fired after the elections anyway) with sending that dead fish. And you are also waisting the calories that you or your cat (or your neighbors cat) might have gotten from eating that fish, so even the fish goes to waste. So dumb idea.

    Just stop thinking that YOU HAVE TO vote for one or the other duopoly parties. Genuinely look if there is a third party you think reeks less than the two ruling parties and vote for them. It's not meaningless or helps some other candidate. Voting simply improves the health of your representative government.
  • 0 thru 9
    936
    You doing nothing else than making one day more miserable to some postal workers who likely will get fired after the elections with sending that dead fish. And you are also waisting the calories that you or your cat (or your neighbors cat) might have gotten from eating that fish, so even the fish goes to waste.ssu

    :lol: Good point. This is the kind of reasonable pragmatic thinking we need, lol!

    Just stop thinking that YOU HAVE TO vote for one or the other duopoly parties. Genuinely look if there is a third party you think reeks less than the two ruling parties and vote for them. Voting simply improves the health of your representative government.ssu

    Oh most definitely. The two-party system is so tight, sleazy, and corrupt it is (almost) incest... or something. The mind boggles reaching for descriptions. A virus on both their houses! A protest vote is an option, better than not voting at all. Where have you gone, Ross Perot and Ralph Nader? This country is “unsafe at any speed”.
  • ssu
    3.3k

    The basic problem is that Americans believe as if a God-like President would somehow descend into the White House and somehow create change with everything else in the representative system being in control with the two corrupt parties.

    It won't work. Never will. But every Presidential candidate will surely say that they, as President, will surely change things!

    The only way, hard but can happen surprisingly quickly, is to work through the representative system (in the way it is designed to work) starting from the municipal level, then the state level and finally through the national level from Capitol Hill, not the White House. The US President cannot do anything else than bomb some miserable Third World country. Anything else he basically has to go through the House and the Senate. So that's your Presidency.

    But do vote, that's the important thing.
  • Benkei
    3.5k
    The basic problem is that Americans believe as if a God-like President would somehow descend into the White House and somehow create change with everything else in the representative system being in control with the two corrupt parties.

    It won't work. Never will. But every Presidential candidate will surely say that they, as President, will surely change things!
    ssu

    I don't know where voting based on plurality is decided but if one thing needs to go, that's it.
  • 0 thru 9
    936
    The basic problem is that Americans believe as if a God-like President would somehow descend into the White House and somehow create change with everything else in the representative system being in control with the two corrupt parties.

    It won't work. Never will. But every Presidential candidate will surely say that they, as President, will surely change things!
    ssu

    Yep. When the president is the lapdog of trillionaires and multi-national corporations, we all know which way things are going to go.

    The only way, hard but can happen surprisingly quickly, is to work through the representative system (in the way it is designed to work) starting from the municipal level, then the state level and finally through the national level from Capitol Hill, not the White House. The US President cannot do anything else than bomb some miserable Third World country. Anything else he basically has to go through the House and the Senate. So that's your Presidency.ssu

    :up: What’s that old quote? Something like... “When the politicians see which way the parade is going, they fight over each other to get out in front to “lead” it. We get the government we settle for. And boy have we settled...

    But do vote, that's the important thing.ssu

    Yes, I’m voting early and often. Bernie Sanders / Elizabeth Warren as write-in candidates. :wink:
  • Philosophim
    371
    I think you're over complicating the issue.

    1. Doesn't have to be 8 years of Biden/Harris. You can just make it 4.
    2. If you're concerned about the balance of power, vote Democrat for president, and Republican for house or senate.
    3. You're either making a choice, or not making a choice. If you don't make a choice, you have no skin in the game. Others will decide for you. You sound like you don't like others telling you what to do. Well, if you don't vote, guess what? We voted in a guy to tell you what to do, and you had no say.

    Vote for the lesser evil if you find no positives. You will at least feel like you made a decision. Otherwise you may end up with what you know in your heart is the greater evil, and and have to deal with that for the next four years.
  • Kevin
    78
    2. If you're concerned about the balance of power, vote Democrat for president, and Republican for house or senate.Philosophim

    This is the first reference to such a concern I've seen...
    I've wondered how "lesser evil efficacy" would measure against "evil gridlock." I don't have any arguments right now for one or the other but it was a thought in any case.
  • 0 thru 9
    936
    I think you're over complicating the issue.Philosophim
    Yes, it’s so simple a child could figure out the future of the USA. Don’t know why that even have an age requirement to vote.

    1. Doesn't have to be 8 years of Biden/Harris. You can just make it 4Philosophim
    And they will promise to leave without a fuss, clearing the way for REAL change, rather just than not having a certifiable maniac exhibiting the Dark Triad in office? (Though getting the criminals out of office is better than nothing. Lock ‘em up!).

    If you don't make a choice, you have no skin in the game.Philosophim
    That’s a common cliche. Everyone in the country has skin in this game. Perhaps everyone in the world. That’s how it goes with Empires, and their rigged elections. Only two options? In times like these? Really? Seriously?

    You sound like you don't like others telling you what to do.Philosophim
    I asked for advice. Good advice is preferable, if you happen to have any to spare.

    Vote for the lesser evil if you find no positives.Philosophim
    I already said: Sanders/Warren as write-in.

    Otherwise you may end up with what you know in your heart is the greater evil, and and have to deal with that for the next four years.Philosophim
    There will be evil either way, of different kinds. But don’t worry, I think I’d have a stroke if I tried to vote for Chump, lol. :mask:
  • 0 thru 9
    936
    I've wondered how "lesser evil efficacy" would measure against "evil gridlock."Kevin

    :lol: I didn’t think of that. Let’s gridlock the whole system! Erm... I mean even more than it is already...
  • 0 thru 9
    936
    Really interesting and in-depth article here from the Jacobin website about the whole Bernie Sanders experiment, and the future implications for America.

    Not surprisingly perhaps, I have some slight differences with the author’s conclusions. Such as the idea that liberal college-educated “professionals” are the future hope of a potential progressive surge. Perhaps. However, I would suggest that beyond the usual Liberal vs Conservative, left vs right dynamic, there is the relatively less-discussed Populist vs Establishment dynamic.

    In this view of the political landscape, many current Trump supporters are actually (and rather surprisingly) potential “progressive” allies, as both are populist movements, though very different ones. (How a NYC billionaire Trump came to represent “the little guy” and “small town America” is a feat perhaps even Orwell would not have believed. If such a thing can happen, so can a sudden opposite shift in voting).

    Trump may represent a toxic, selfish, violent, and short-sighted tribalism, but his SUPPORTERS (at least if they can stop drinking the poison kool-aid) still broadly represent a large and very successful populist movement. Extremely quickly, the “populists” took over the Republican party. Next stop for upheaval: the Democrats. And / or the formation of VIABLE and ELECTABLE Third parties. This two-party deadlock system monopoly is dead. Brain-dead at least. The best they can do is stall for time.

    The problem is Trump (and any other wolf in sheep’s clothing), not his supporters, as misguided and violent as some of them may indeed be.

    Propaganda is empty toxic calories. Not a sustainable mental diet, no matter where one is on the political spectrum.
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