• ToothyMaw
    1.2k
    Just watched this Jordan Peterson clip (don't bother reading the comments, they are toxic): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTk-69f64KU He makes the good point that those who make efforts to improve themselves make more effective leaders and that these leaders then make wiser decisions regarding necessary collective action, but he also seems to imply that there is a dichotomy between this and advocating for social causes. I think this is wrongheaded; not everyone has to be a leader and lots of people are needed to bolster social movements, almost all of whom will never lead in any meaningful way. This is a sort of dodge I think - individual responsibility includes taking part in social movements because the issues, if not attended to, will affect each of us personally, and, to engage in collective attempts to fix these issues, is to improve one's own personal opportunities or wellbeing.

    An example is climate change: each of us, even the top one percent, will be affected by climate catastrophe on a personal level. Additionally, other policies, such as universal basic income and Medicare for all will improve many lives on an individual level if these policies are put into place and by making headway on these fronts the collective and the individual need for positive change will be satisfied. Does anyone have any input on this topic? Is there any reason to prioritize individual needs over collective needs when they come into conflict? It seems that if one can do something that benefits both oneself and humanity significantly that should take priority.

    I'm not an activist myself so this is coming from a hypothetical standpoint. But I know that some people truly grow from pouring themselves into social causes, especially when they can see some progress, and that they become wiser and better leaders as a result. This is the kind of personal growth that Peterson appears to so value I think, and it's in people who claim the "pseudo-moralistic stances" that Peterson decries. Once again, any thoughts on this?
  • Tzeentch
    3.3k
    Pursuing personal growth is something that by and large only affects the individual. You can pursue whatever you believe is good for you.

    When we project our preferences on society, it is no longer just ourselves that is affected. Issues that would 'require' collective action often have proponents and opponents, since what is considered an improvement by some, may not be considered an improvement by others.

    The tension here seems obvious.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.2k
    When we project our preferences on society, it is no longer just ourselves that is affected. Issues that would 'require' collective action often have proponents and opponents, since what is considered an improvement by some, may not be considered an improvement by others.Tzeentch

    I am saying that certain policies will objectively increase people's opportunities and wellbeing, such as attempts to avoid climate catastrophe; anyone who opposes these attempts without a hefty philosophical argument ("party and go" comes to mind) is just wrong. You just need the facts and a few key assumptions. Furthermore, I think that the very process of potentially improving the lot of every human on earth could in and of itself lead to personal growth, even if there are some ideological aspects of your cause. And I don't know what tension you are talking about. I like some of what Jordan Peterson does. And so what if we affect other people in the process of growing? That doesn't nullify the growth.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.2k
    @Tzeentch I think you are trying to obfuscate the issue; it is without a doubt true that every reasonable person holds the necessary assumptions to support avoiding climate catastrophe, for example; they just might not know the facts or believe they know the facts when really they don't. Furthermore, these issues absolutely require collective action: we each need to do our part; we must limit our emissions, for example, and vote for candidates who support preserving the environment, actions that are done on an individual level that affect the collective. And there are genuinely collective efforts, such as organizing protests, that are necessary too. I think that pursuing a cause necessary for the preservation of organized human life might inspire growth in the individual, and a greater sense of duty to both themselves and other people.
  • Tzeentch
    3.3k
    If it is such a universal good, as you say, then how come for such issues there exist also opponents? Are all opponents of such issues simply ignorant? Are the facts they quote wrong and are yours right?

    they just might not know the facts or believe they know the facts when really they don't.Aleph Numbers

    What if the proponents of some collective action think they know the facts when they really don't?

    And so what if we affect other people in the process of growing? That doesn't nullify the growth.Aleph Numbers

    What is growth for one, may not be growth for another.

    I think this type of one-sided thinking lays bare exactly the type of tension I am talking about.

    Here are a few sentiments that I think echo throughout your post:

    "I know what is best for others."

    "My facts are right, and their facts are wrong."

    "I am right, so I may tell others what to do."
  • ToothyMaw
    1.2k
    What is growth for one, may not be growth for another.Tzeentch

    Why would one's own personal growth affect another person's personal growth? When you grow in the process of supporting a universal good I don't see how that growth has any effect on anyone else. Promoting social causes might affect others in good (or bad) ways but one's own growth probably only makes one a better advocate for social change, a better leader, more competent, etc.

    What if the proponents of some collective action think they know the facts when they really don't?Tzeentch

    It is true that no one is perfectly informed, but it is undeniable that the facts do exist and that relatively informed people can learn these facts and act on them and be promoting a universal good while growing in the process. Furthermore, the people who might promote social causes based on misinformation could also grow; whether or not the cause is just might have no effect on whether or not advocating for it makes one a better leader, more competent, etc.
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