• Eugen
    269
    Panpsychism states that consciousness is basically all around. Quarks have a very small degree of consciousness, ants larger and humans much larger. But we could also say that more complex organisms would be more conscious than we are.
    But to be honest, I don't know if ''more consciouss'' even makes sense.
  • Outlander
    363
    Chemical interaction to stimuli is not "consciousness".

    You could say anything theoretically but until you show me one..

    It does and it doesn't. Obviously someone about to faint or pass out or having a stroke is less conscious than you or I as it is traditionally defined or at least perceived.

    Interesting branch arguments though. A healthy and awake baby is just as conscious as a distinguished PhD performing surgery. Right?
  • Wheatley
    1.2k
    Quarks have a very small degree of consciousnessEugen
    Let's pretend to take that seriously for a moment. What are quarks conscious about?
  • Eugen
    269
    What are quarks conscious about?Wheatley

    .....? I have absolutely no idea.
  • Wheatley
    1.2k

    Better question: What does it mean to say a particular quark is conscious?
  • Eugen
    269
    A healthy and awake baby is just as conscious as a distinguished PhD performing surgery. Right?Outlander

    No, but I think a normal person is just as conscious as a distinguished PhD performing surgery.
  • Eugen
    269
    I don't know. I am here to understand these things, not to provide answers haha
  • Wheatley
    1.2k

    You're probably getting way more out of this forum than you are putting into it.

    (I don't expect this to go down well.) :scream:
  • Eugen
    269
    You're probably getting way more out of this forum than you are putting into it.Wheatley

    Is there a rule in this sense?
  • Wheatley
    1.2k

    No, you should be fine as long as your follow the Site Guidelines. It's also important to know your rights. :wink:

    *hint* You don't have any. :lol:
  • Banno
    8.5k
    IF quarks are conscious, do they sleep? Can they be anaesthetised? Can they be knocked unconscious by a blow to the... string?
  • Eugen
    269
    Thank you, I have read them, I find them very reasonable, and so far I think I've done a good job in respecting them. This is why I haven't been warned or banned. Cheers!
  • Wheatley
    1.2k

    Really good questions!
  • Eugen
    269
    IF quarks are conscious, do they sleep? Can they be anaesthetised? Can they be knocked unconscious by a blow to the... string?Banno

    Good questions!
  • Wheatley
    1.2k
    Not that I want you banned, or anything. :cool:
  • Banno
    8.5k
    I think they should be treated as part of a reductio ad absurdum. Hence, Panpsychism fails.
  • Eugen
    269
    I think they should be treated as part of a reductio ad absurdum. Hence, Panpsychism fails.Banno

    I actually find your argument pretty reasonable. But we can apply this vice-versa as well: how come elements with 0 consciousness can form something conscious? I have heard the ''emergent'' theory, but I don't believe in magic.
  • Eugen
    269
    IF quarks are conscious, do they sleep? Can they be anaesthetised? Can they be knocked unconscious by a blow to the... string?Banno

    1. IF quarks are conscious, do they sleep? - no
    2. Can they be anesthetized? - no
    3. Can they be knocked unconscious by a blow to the... string? - that yes! Kidding.

    Maybe there is a ''minimum'' degree of consciousness that cannot be reduced to ''unconsciousness''. Case in which panpsychism is absolutely true.
  • Eugen
    269
    Not that I want you banned, or anything. :cool:Wheatley
    0 warnings in 3 years. You're worrying too much for me, let the moderators do their job. If they warn/ban me, it means I did something wrong. If they don't, it means those who accused me were wrong. :)
  • Banno
    8.5k
    how come elements with 0 consciousness can form something conscious?Eugen

    You wake up, don't you? From zero to conscious.

    Notice that you can loose consciousness while quarks cannot.

    I'm not going with this. It relies on a muddled understanding of consciousness.
  • Eugen
    269
    You wake up, don't you? From zero to consciousBanno

    Exactly because the matter that my brain is made of has conscious properties. My consciousness is a sum of many irreductible conscious elements, so my consciousness is a state or a combination of those elementary things. When I sleep, that state is no longer there and it re-emerges when I wake up.
    Of course, this is definitely just a scenario, but what am I trying to say is that your argument does not exclude the existance of elementary conscious elements, your assumption does. It's like saying "my castle is a pile of bricks, but the bricks lack bricks properties."
  • Wheatley
    1.2k
    for some reason you gave me the impression that you were a new here.
  • Pantagruel
    893
    But we could also say that more complex organisms would be more conscious than we are.Eugen

    Are you "more conscious" now than when you were a child? I know I am. Consciousness is certainly a spectrum.
  • Eugen
    269
    Hmmm... I know I realise stuff that I didn't before. But is this process infinite? I mean yeah, I am more conscious than I was when I was a child, but I would say I am not more than I was 10 years ago. I know more stuff in the fields I am interested in, but I am not sure if that is the equivalent of being more conscious.
  • jorndoe
    949
    Something could be "conscious of more" than we are.
  • Eugen
    269
    Something could be "conscious of more" than we are.jorndoe
    I find that to be a true moment of inspiration. Great point!
  • Harry Hindu
    3.3k
    IF quarks are conscious, do they sleep? Can they be anaesthetised? Can they be knocked unconscious by a blow to the... string?Banno

    When you sleep, you dream. Are you conscious when dreaming? How do you know when you're unconscious? Even when asleep you are jolted awake by a loud sound or being touched. Are you conscious of loud sounds and a being touched when unconscious? You are only conscious of being conscious, never of being unconscious. Is a neuron conscious?
  • Pantagruel
    893
    I know I realise stuff that I didn't before. But is this process infinite? I mean yeah, I am more conscious than I was when I was a child, but I would say I am not more than I was 10 years ago. I know more stuff in the fields I am interested in, but I am not sure if that is the equivalent of being more conscious.Eugen

    Most change/growth processes exhibit a rapid initial phase followed by a "decreasing gains" phase. Imagine if you had gone to work in a factory at 18, then at 40 decided to return to school and ended up getting a PhD in political economy. I think in that case you might well experience an expansion of consciousness akin to that of childhood again.

    I'm currently reading Dewey's book Human Nature and Conduct: On Social Psychology and Habit. It's a fascinating look at how much of what we think of as our "intelligence" is a function of our habits of social interaction and habits of thought. Break out of your old habits and you will experience a revolution of consciousness......
  • Frank Apisa
    1.9k
    Eugen
    221
    Panpsychism states that consciousness is basically all around. Quarks have a very small degree of consciousness, ants larger and humans much larger. But we could also say that more complex organisms would be more conscious than we are.
    But to be honest, I don't know if ''more consciouss'' even makes sense.
    Eugen

    Yeah...ya gotta wonder about that.

    But some really fine minds once posited, "A more perfect Union..."...and that doesn't seem to make much sense either.
  • Possibility
    1.4k
    Panpsychism states that consciousness is basically all around. Quarks have a very small degree of consciousness, ants larger and humans much larger. But we could also say that more complex organisms would be more conscious than we are.
    But to be honest, I don't know if ''more consciouss'' even makes sense.
    Eugen

    Panpsychists apply the term ‘conscious’ very loosely - the idea is that there is a kind of proto-conscious interaction existing to a lesser and lesser degree in less complex systems. I use the term ‘system’ because the kind of panpsychism I am interested in ties in with information theory. But I think it isn’t just a matter of complexity - it’s about integrated systems of awareness, connection and collaboration, which is a particular type of complexity.

    I don’t think ‘more conscious’ is particularly helpful, though. Consciousness as it is usually understood has the capacity to occur only within an as yet uncertain range or pattern of integrated complexity, and the level of awareness, connection and collaboration occurring in the system may move it in and out of that range for a number of reasons. What occurs in terms of awareness, connection and collaboration at a less complex (or indeed a more complex) level of integration would need to be something other than ‘consciousness’, in my view.
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