So I'm trying to understand the point of these posts. Is it to show the Gnostic idea that there is a "higher god" above the God of the Bible?

Agree however as a mortal and how foolish and even regrettable our formation was we really can't be expected to know anything other than 'God' meaning the Creator or any name knowingly referencing any other by intent. We just were simply not given the capacity to know or understand rather differentiate these sort of things.

Agree however as a mortal and how foolish and even regrettable our formation was we really can't be expected to know anything other than 'God' meaning the Creator or any name knowingly referencing any other by intent. We just were simply not given the capacity to know or understand rather differentiate these sort of things. — Outlander

I don't get it. Is this what you think @Gnostic Christian Bishop is trying to say? I kind of consider myself a secular gnostic, so I have sympathies, but not with the idea that there's really an Unknown God who begets the Barbelo who then begets emanations of all sorts which begets Sophia which begets Ialdaboath, which begets helpers and then men, but who then are given the spirit of Barbelo through Sophia in a sort of trick and whereby the descendants of Seth are then given the sparks of real higher knowledge within them from the higher beings. That seems a bit far-fetched.

Really, Gnosticism seems to be what happens when Hellenists with heavily Egyptian synthesis, comes in contact with Jewish and early Jewish Christian sects. They were perplexed by certain things about Yawheh as depicted in the Hebrew Scriptures so tried to correct this by saying there was a higher god above this one, heavily relying on Plato's Timaeus to create this mythology of a god who copies the realm of archetypes. Anyways, even if it is one of the world's first New Age philosophies (synthesizing Greek, Jewish, and Christian ideas), I do think it is interesting how they see the physical world as corrupt, full of suffering, etc. and were highly anti-procreation.

Thank you for your post. Always good to read about such concepts.

Mine was much simpler I'm afraid. I don't know what he meant but by common themes of recent threads (Judas was a hero) I have an idea. Inaccuracy of modern religion. Something I believe is very possible. Again my statement is much more simple. Most humans are idiots. So we shouldn't be punished for believing in "the wrong God" unless the doctrine held specifically annotated the Creator as separate from the one focused on.

Even the state doesn't execute the mentally deficient. Therefore, an all knowing God wouldn't either.

Thank you for your post. Always good to read about such concepts.

Mine was much simpler I'm afraid. I don't know what he meant but by common themes of recent threads (Judas was a hero) I have an idea. Inaccuracy of modern religion. Something I believe is very possible. Again my statement is much more simple. Most humans are idiots. So we shouldn't be punished for believing in "the wrong God" unless the doctrine held specifically annotated the Creator as separate from the one focused on.

Even the state doesn't execute the mentally deficient. Therefore, an all knowing God wouldn't either. — Outlander

I get the sentiment. I find it more interesting that religion fascinates human lives so much in so many quarters. It's like a fantasy that people are permitted to indulge in because its origins are from long ago.

I'm kind of fascinated with the Roman and Greek gods, and how people worshiped them. The Hebrew God, Yahweh offered commandments to follow for his people (I'm not saying this was actually offered, but according to its own mythology). What did the pagan gods of Zeus, Hera, Apollo, Athena, Jupiter, Vesta, Venus, etc. offer their adherents? Not a set of laws. What was the Greek worshipper and believer getting and bestowing on these gods? The Israelites were to obtain prosperity and keep their land if they did their part. The Israelites had a code of how to live. What did the Greco-Roman adherents have from following Jupiter? I'm guessing the lack of substance made it ripe for people like Paul to convert them to a more unifying belief system. I don't know though.

There were Greco-Roman myths, and then there were Greco-Roman philosophies to explain the myths or de-legitimize them. There were ceremonies, holidays, pilgrimages, temples, priests, and oracles. But I don't know how much coherence and semblence these had. How did this all "hang together" really? It seemed a hodgepodge of civic and personal petitioning that were kind of a little of this and that. Judah-ism's biblical narrative and covanental nature, provided a sweeping narrative where everything from creation to ethics to the End of Times was all explained in a systematic way. This same systematic grouping of mysteries of creation, end of times, and how to live one's life didn't seem to be as all-encompasing in the Greco-Roman pagan world. Thus, mystery cults sort of filled this gap. So did things like Neoplatonism and Gnosticism which were also trying to be systematic, based largely on Plato's ideas of Forms and archetypes being emanated. Finally, there was Paul who thought of his own mystery-cult which became Orthodox (Catholic/Greek Orthodox/Protestant) Christianity.

But again, I'd like to know what it was like to live in the hodgepodge of non-systematic religions such as non-mystery cultic Greco-Roman religion. I want to know the average "regular Joe" worshiper in a small town or village in the Roman world. Did religion really matter to them, or was it kind of a sort of tradition that they just followed, that they really didn't think much about? I mean how compelling is Jupiter, Apollo, etc. as real rulers of sorts in some cosmic way? It seems like a joke, as if the stories were always myths and never really believed by the adherents.

Not hard to imagine really. Go camping for a week or at least a few days with no technology. Even better, no food or water. Just a knife, basic tools, maybe an axe. Maybe I'm exaggerating. The then-state provided necessities for purchase. No iPhone, no TV, no internet, I think they had books. Not sure. No medicine at least nothing like today. No noise of planes, trains, cars. Silence. Natural sounds. I'd imagine we'd be largely the same. Emotions. Thought. Etc. Aside from that, nothing but time to ponder and wonder at nature's beauty and power.

The first entity mentioned was as you said, you obey basic laws that frankly modern civilization is based on. You survive. The latter, according to text, either favored or punished humans based on their deeds, bravery, compassion, or wrath and indifference.

Sure it all seems like a joke now as you type this on your fancy computer or iPhone, in an air conditioned house with plenty of food and a decent job that if injured during will probably have you set for life. Delicious food from any corner of the Earth minutes away. Any revolutionary invention now only a few dollars delivered the next day. But it wasn't always this way. Only recently. Right?

So I'm trying to understand the point of these posts. Is it to show the Gnostic idea that there is a "higher god" above the God of the Bible? — schopenhauer1

No. Gnostic Christians ideas are superior to Christian ideas. Those stand on their own.

Since few are interested in religions these days, not even believers, in terms of their morality, so I prefer bashing the genocidal Yahweh.

Putting our myth against Yahweh's back when was quite useful for discussions and dialogues, but for these modern literalist times, it is not worth doing the comparisons of myths.

I think the morals of a religion are more important than the name of the god that some man created for it.

Regards
DL

I do think it is interesting how they see the physical world as corrupt, full of suffering, etc. and were highly anti-procreation. — schopenhauer1

Have a look at what a modern Gnostic Christian thinks of reality.

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religions originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------

The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christians ideas are superior to Christian ideas. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

In what sense?

Should fathers put themselves and their lives above their children’s, or should fathers protect their children at all costs? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Grading on a curve, it seems okay. You're talking about a book in which it's fine to kill your own child if you think that's what God wants or if your child has been disobedient, it's fine to sell your child into slavery, and it's fine to hand your daughters over to gang rapists to steer attention away from your guests. Letting your son be tortured for a few days when you know he's going to be okay in the end seems comparatively noble.

Should fathers put themselves and their lives above their children’s, or should fathers protect their children at all costs? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

There should be no illusions as to how people will respond when the proverbial shit hits the fan. Love, courage, and all those things that evoke warm fuzzy feelings work only in calm seas; at the first sign of trouble, people will behave the way they should - selfishly but I don't mean that in a bad way.

Reminds me of airlines safety procedures - first thing to do in the event of an emergency is to put the oxygen mask on yourself and only then should you try helping others.

In what sense? — tim wood

Christians, for instance, idolize a genocidal and infanticidal god that kills when he could just as easily cure.

Gnostic Christian, on the other hand, think such a vile god to be more Satan like than god like.

This link speaks to other issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNcRXeCzpno

When you add in the homophobia and misogyny in Christianity, you will see why it and their a hole Yahweh should be soundly rejected.

Regards
DL

Letting your son be tortured for a few days when you know he's going to be okay in the end seems comparatively noble. — Kenosha Kid

Noble? Noble would have been Yahweh stepping up.

I would call the whole Jesus myth more of a joke against humans based on lies.

Regards
DL

at the first sign of trouble, people will behave the way they should - selfishly but I don't mean that in a bad way. — TheMadFool

Hence the law of the sea, --- that puts women and children first, --- to tell us who the male cowards are.

Do you really think most men would throw their children and women into the sea so that they could have a seat in the life boat?

Regards
DL

Noble? Noble would have been Yahweh stepping up. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

*Comparatively* noble. If we're going absolutist, morality derives from God, right? So it is noble by virtue of him doing or sanctioning it. I think that's the standard answer.

*sigh* You're confused and ill-informed. There's a difference between OT and NT. As to prejudicial aspects, distinguish between the messenger and the message. In this case it's the messenger who delivers the wrong message. Your critique, then, of Christianity is both ignorant and naive. Life is to short to remain too long a child: grow up!

Does this mean there is nothing to object to in the Bible? There is plenty to object to in the Bible! But, then, why are you reading it? What do you understand any western religion to be? Or are you just another supernaturalist who doesn't like the particular supernatural being that someone else believes in?

edited

morality derives from God, right? — Kenosha Kid

Don't be foolish. Genocidal gods are satanic. Not moral.

Look at secular law and see how much better it is compared to the genocidal Yahweh's.

If you want or need proofs ----

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

Regards
DL

*sigh* You're confused and ill-informed. — tim wood

Any fool knows the N T and N T are different.

Thanks for showing where I erred in your critique.

I, of course, agree that I am all wrong, even though I do not know what you are talking about.

Thanks for the great discussion and needed instructions and corrections.

Regards
DL