• boethius
    2.2k
    A fork from the bannings thread.

    "To make any advance in philosophical understanding requires subjecting one's thoughts to the harshest possible criticism. I like sushi is providing this sort of value to you for free; there exists no onus to bundle that value with other kinds such as encouragement or accolades.
    — Boethius "

    I agree in theory, but in the real world the "harshest possible criticism" typically triggers ego storms which derail the investigation. And then there's this...

    If you present an effective challenge to some viewpoint in "harshest possible criticism" mode you are giving the target an escape hatch. When the challenge becomes too much for the target to bear they can change the subject to you, derail the thread with all kinds of emotionalisms, get you banned and so on. If present your challenge in a scrupulously polite manner, this avenue of escape is closed off.

    So if you want to be kind, act like a jerk. :-)
    Nuke

    Fortunately, this (banal) mode of critique (even hundreds of years ago) has already been dispensed with:

    Yet it is easier to put up with an ignorant man who declares that theory is unnecessary and dispensable in his supposed practice than with a would-be expert who concedes it and its value in schools (perhaps only to exercise the mind) but at the same time maintains that matters are quite different in practice; that when one goes from school into the world one becomes aware that one has been pursuing empty ideals and philosophic dreams; in short, that what sounds good in theory has no validity for practice. (This is often expressed as, this or that proposition does indeed hold in thesi, but not in hypothesi.) Now if an empirical engineer tried to disparage general mechanics, or an artilleryman the mathematical doctrine of ballistics, by saying that whereas the theory of it is nicely thought out it is not valid in practice since, when it comes to application, experience yields quite different results than theory, one would merely laugh at him (for, if the theory of friction were added to the first and the theory of the resistance of air to the second, hence if only still more theory were added, these would accord very well with experience).

    [...]

    This maxim, which has become very common in our times, so full of talk and empty of deeds, does the greatest harm when it has to do with something moral (duties of virtue or duties of right). For here it is a matter of the canon of reason (in the practical), where the worth of practice rests entirely on its conformity with the theory underlying it, and all is lost if the empirical and hence contingent conditions of carrying out the law are made conditions of the law itself, so that a practice calculated with reference to an outcome probable in accordance with previous experience is given authority to control a self-sufficient theory.

    [...]

    I divide this treatise according to the three different standpoints from which the worthy gentielman' who so boldly disparages theories and systems usually appraises his objects, and so in his three capacities i) as A private individual who is still a man of affairs, 2) as a statesman, 3) as a man of the world (or citizen of the world generally). These three persons are at one in attacking the academic, who works on theory on behalf of them all and for their benefit; since they fancy that they understand matters better than he, they seek to banish him to his school (ilia se iaäet in aula!),' as a scholar who, spoiled for practice, only stands in the way of their experienced wisdom.
    Kant

    If reading this essay is not sufficient; you're mistake is to assume I am trying, much more have a duty, on this forum to try to persuade rather than argue.

    I do not say "To make any advance in philosophical understanding requires subjecting one's thoughts to the harshest possible criticism" principally for others, but rather principally for myself. I come to the forum as a part of my objective to find the harshest possible criticism.

    Because I believe in treating others as I would have them treat me, I try to provide this value of the harshest possible criticism to others as I wish they provide to me. Otherwise, if the forum was simply an exchange of platitudes, an echo-chamber of the choir, or 99% of every discussion about the feelings of participants in the discussion rather than the topic at hand, the forum would have no value.

    The forum has value because the harshest possible criticism people here can craft is both allowed and encouraged. Now, why not even harsher such as insults? Because insults are not harsh criticism, but the flailing about of a weak mind that no one with an ounce of wisdom needs strain their own faculties to meet. For instance, if someone were to call me a jerk, I am simply flattered that they have nothing better to say. Insults are low quality criticism, that again if low quality was tolerated and inundated the forum, it the forum would have no value and I would go elsewhere for what I seek.

    Now, if hearing all this if you still ask "but really, what about their feelings? still? they have feelings we shouldn't hurt, they may not like it", it does not matter if my opponents here are convinced by me or not; they participate here willingly and I have no thought for their comfort. If it's uncomfortable for them they can go elsewhere.

    In opposing view points with the full stakes of what those view points imply (defending what one really believe to be right and attacking what one really believes to be wrong), the best contrast of those views is the result. Of the participants, it is their choice to benefit or not, if they do not choose to benefit from the exposure of their arguments to those of a different colour, and see for themselves if they captured the right image of reality, focusing on the right aspects in the right ratio, then that is their loss. However, their self sacrifice of their own benefit we can be comforted by the fact other participants on the forum benefit and likewise knowledge in a general sense.

    However, rest assured that when I go about my business and my goal is to persuade (investors, team members, the bank, the bureaucrats, clients, the general public etc.) I have a different approach. If you were worried for my own personal life of criticizing everyone harshly all the time, you need not; it is only someone looking and inviting scrutiny, such as developing a business plan or posting on this forum, that I would think to criticize harshly, for they seek such a benefit. True, sometimes people are not really looking for what they say they are looking for, and would rather me pat them on the head and say "this business plan is great, put all you resources into it" or then "your argument is sound, I see where you are coming from, good work, keep at it" even if I don't believe that to be the case, but I can not distinguish the genuine from the disingenuous, and so in treating everyone as unable to manage their own egos I do disservice to those that can.

    I've placed this in the political section, because it is a question of political discourse.

    True, when the objective of the day is to persuade and not get to the fundamental truth, then harshly criticizing everyone with the slightest difference is not a good strategy. However, to get to that point of persuading presumes one already knows the truth that one feels justified in persuading others about and doe not, at least in the moment, require a critical debate. But, how does one get to such a belief in the first place? Clearly, if one thinks one has the truth, presumably the critical debate was required at some point by someone; and if not, it would certainly be trivial to check it to be the case. A healthy society, therefore, requires two realms of discourse, one indeed of persuasion to coordinate the like, though not perfectly, minded to carry out real actions they are more than less satisfied and oppose the actions which they are more than less dissatisfied (and vice-versa for their opponents), but also another realm of real debate from which we hope the truth to emerge. Those that fear such a framework of real criticism, of each side needing to "show what they got", in an equal setting of words against words, absent the power dynamic of the wagging finger of the parent, the school master, the boss, the pundit or politician, are those that fear the truth.

    The language of "common now, don't really get into things, it makes people uncomfortable, watch your tone! philosophers! put on your kitten gloves when dealing with the self-labeled lions of intellectual prowess who are just trying to comfort the haves and make a buck," in the context of intellectual debate, of opposing philosophical world views, is the language of privilege; for when one's vision of society is already, more than less, applied in the real world one need not a proper analysis of things, one can simply enjoy the fruits of victory; a proper analysis can bring only either the white flag of negotiation, of capitulation of the rotten bulwarks of power; or then, violence in the streets and a need to do the dirty work of maintaining those bulwarks ... if one ever really was wrong about the justification of things as they already are, better not to think about it in the first place.

    For, if you re-read your criticism carefully, your concern is for the privileged, those that have enough to have egos to worry about, and your concern is how to persuade them to be and to do less rather than more evil.

    Yes, the truth is mostly irrelevant to such nudging, and will only risk angering them and they will storm off and avoid any further engagement.

    However, my concern is not for the haves, but the havenots, and they have not enough to have egos to worry about, and their only weapon is the truth, for once in the mind it cannot be easily be taken away as can a home and a slice of dignity, and they do not have the time for a few points scattered in the long-winded self-congratulating bellows of the intellectual class; for, the truth is free for every mind, and with more truth than their opponents it is possible to win the day, even with little to nothing. In writing what I really think is true, perhaps indeed I do disservice to those who have egos, but there are others who have no such barriers to critical thinking, those who know what reality is like because they are on the receiving end of it, and who quite clearly see a better analysis is a tool for changing it. A handful of privileged intellectuals in each generation take on the task to oppose evil with words so that the havenots can make opposition with actions, rather than simply maintaining and enjoying their privilege; for a revolution of language and argument precedes every revolution of political relations, and this is the only relevance of philosophy beyond entertaining parlor talk games; I rather try to take on that task than live in fear of the lightening strikes from high society and be deafened into silence from the thundering ruffling of feathers.
  • Echarmion
    2.5k


    Talk about ego. This reads very much like self-aggrandizement, displaying yourself as some paragon of truth and reason because you're harsh.

    What you are missing is that you may not, in fact have the truth. No single person may have it. It may be that it requires a collaborative effort. And that requires that we extend a measure of friendliness, of benefit of the doubt.

    If all you care about is yourself and your advancement, you'll miss out on what others can offer. If you elevate harshness to some kind of independent virtue, you are only stroking your own ego.
  • boethius
    2.2k


    I never said I had the truth. Read more carefully if understanding is a goal of yours.

    I said when I persuade, only then do I presume to have the truth, for why else would I presume to be justified in persuading. And, indeed, often I make such a presumption: that team members should follow a plan, that a client should purchase a service, etc. I maybe wrong in these instances, but I take the risk.

    But, when I have the luxury to check if what I believe is true, then harsh criticism is the only method I have found that yields any advancement.

    I am curious, however, would you say Kant's criticism I cited wasn't harsh? But that he puts on the kitten gloves; please point out where? If he is harsh, and right, why not emulate him? If he's wrong, where is he wrong?

    Please, teach me.
  • Echarmion
    2.5k
    I never said I had the truth. Read more carefully if understanding is a goal of yours.boethius

    This is a case in point, isn't it? If your goal is to offer harsh criticism, what may end up happening is that in your efforts, you misunderstand. And then all you have done is waste time.

    My goal in the post you quoted was not to understand, but to reflect your own approach back at you.

    But, when I have the luxury to check if what I believe is true, then harsh criticism is the only method I have found that yields any advancement.boethius

    This, being an anecdotal claim, is difficult to engage with. Have you found any specific value in being harsh?

    I am curious, however, would you say Kant's criticism I cited wasn't harsh? But that he puts on the kitten gloves; please point out where? If he is harsh, and right, why not emulate him? If he's wrong, where is he wrong?boethius

    Arguably, it is harsh. The style is very much in line with the social norms of the time though. It'd be a mistake to assume Kant was intentionally being harsh because he presents his critique in an uncompromising way. That's simply how things were done in the 18th century. Reasoning along the lines of "Kant, a great philosopher, used harsh criticism in his text, therefore to be a great philosopher, one needs to criticize harshly" is obviously faulty. Kant's harshness may be entirely unrelated to the quality of his philosophy.
  • unenlightened
    8.7k
    I am curious, however, would you say Kant's criticism I cited wasn't harsh? But that he puts on the kitten gloves; please point out where? If he is harsh, and right, why not emulate him? If he's wrong, where is he wrong?

    Please, teach me.
    boethius

    Harsh, if you will, though it's not the word I would choose. But as he describes the subject of his criticism, such a person would not be interested in his efforts, assuming it is not indeed an entirely straw- subject.

    "To all the people ignoring me, you are wrong to ignore me." It is close to a performative contradiction to address 'the worthy gentleman' who is not interested. And Kant avoids that. One is left therefore with the backhanded compliment that flatters the actual reader who is 'not like them'.
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    Kant harsh? Someone does not know what "harsh" means.

    Just for a point of reference:
    "harsh
    /härSH/
    adjective
    1.
    unpleasantly rough or jarring to the senses.
    2.
    cruel or severe.
    3.
    excessively critical or negative."
  • boethius
    2.2k
    Kant harsh? Someone does not know what "harsh" means.

    Just for a point of reference:
    "harsh
    /härSH/
    adjective
    1.
    unpleasantly rough or jarring to the senses.
    2.
    cruel or severe.
    3.
    excessively critical or negative."
    tim wood

    If you bothered to copy paste the whole thing:

    1.
    unpleasantly rough or jarring to the senses.

    "drenched in a harsh white neon light"

    2.
    cruel or severe.

    "a time of harsh military discipline"

    (of a climate or conditions) difficult to survive in; hostile.
    "the harsh environment of the desert"

    (of reality or a fact) grim and unpalatable.
    "the harsh realities of the world news"

    having an undesirably strong effect.
    "she finds soap too harsh and drying"
    — google definition

    Please explain your point again with the context added to your cherry picking definition game.

    That when Kant says:

    Now if an empirical engineer tried to disparage general mechanics, or an artilleryman the mathematical doctrine of ballistics, by saying that whereas the theory of it is nicely thought out it is not valid in practice since, when it comes to application, experience yields quite different results than theory, one would merely laugh at himKant

    And:

    Yet it is easier to put up with an ignorant man who declares that theory is unnecessary and dispensable in his supposed practice than with a would-be expert who concedes it and its value in schools (perhaps only to exercise the mind) but at the same time maintains that matters are quite different in practiceKant

    That the word "harsh" is simply inaccurate, and rather these words are closer to being a good description:

    Harsh
    1.
    [...] Opposite: soft, dulcet, subdued
    2.
    [...] Opposite: enlightened, kind, lenient, comfortable
    [...] Opposite: balmy
    [...] Opposite: mild smooth
    — "google

    Seeing the context of your own citation, do you believe now the statement:

    Someone does not know what "harsh" means.tim wood

    Is better applied to me (who does bother to read context) or yourself (who it seems does not bother with context, yet is ready to castigate others for their diction choice).
  • boethius
    2.2k
    Harsh, if you will, though it's not the word I would choose. But as he describes the subject of his criticism, such a person would not be interested in his efforts, assuming it is not indeed an entirely straw- subject.

    "To all the people ignoring me, you are wrong to ignore me." It is close to a performative contradiction to address 'the worthy gentleman' who is not interested. And Kant avoids that. One is left therefore with the backhanded compliment that flatters the actual reader who is 'not like them'.
    unenlightened

    Have you even bothered reading my posts here?

    And how does Kant avoid that? He berates the people who use the expression "true in theory and not in practice" and completely demolishes any argumentative basis for such a saying.

    Yes, he is simply saying "you are wrong to ignore me" (the academic working on better theories), and considering people are still using this "true in theory and not in practice" fallacy centuries later, it seems Kant did not avoid being ignored.

    However, what Kant did do is provide an extremely harsh criticism of such a position (doesn't apologize or try to empathize or try to "soften the blow" of his critique in anyway). People who are interested can benefit from the critique, people who are not interested do not benefit.

    Harsh critique does not persuade those that aren't interested, or are mildly interested; the objective of harsh critique is to try to actually get to the truth; it is of interest only to those actually willing to do what it takes to get more truth than they currently have.

    When PhD's submit their dissertation, the ideas is not only that it is critiqued harshly, so that there is some basis to assume it has merit (if it withstands harsh critique) but that the PhD student, so motivated by the truth, is able to accept and process harsh criticism (for instance, to then address that harsh criticism before the final submission). The critical method is a harsh process, not a soft process.

    Once one has a truth one considers actionable, then a followup question maybe "how do I persuade people to participate in my objective?" and in such a pursuit, I completely agree, harshly criticizing everyone one meets is not a good way to go about.

    However, my goal here is the intellectual activity that precedes "one has a truth one considers actionable", how can I be sure, or at least more confident in my beliefs?

    My method, and I am not trying to persuade you to use it, is to subject both my own beliefs to harsh criticism (by writing what I actually believe as clear as I am able to write, without truncation or dilutions engaged in for the purposes of being able to simply dodge all criticism by saying nothing substantive at the end of the day; and, more importantly, reading and responding to the criticism I encounter as far as I can, no matter how harsh it is), and, likewise, to provide my own harsh criticism of incompatible view points to see if my belief that I have a criticism is valid. If I do my best to criticize an alternative belief and fail, I have something to think about; if I do not try my best, and I fail, then I have accomplished nothing and can simply assume "I, like, totally could have taken them down, if I wanted to".

    Connected to the broader sphere of social discourse; society really does need places such as this philosophy forum where opposing views can meet on an equal footing and subject each other to the harshest possible criticism each side can muster. Without such a process, then society cannot get to better truths than it currently has, and will flounder around in the morass of "every opinion is as good as another", "that maybe true in theory but not in practice", "my truth", "it's not factual but it represents a true feeling", "false balance", etc. that support echo chambers that lead to social division.

    No one is forced to be here, and the rules here allow for the kind of harsh criticism I describe.

    I have provided harsh criticism, but I have also received harsh criticism. You don't seem to defend me when harsh words are aimed at me, why is that?
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    Well then, may all of your experiences be harsh. Of course not the Kantian kind, that's not harsh. As to your understanding of the psychology of the thing, that's equally bizarre. At the very least, harshness is a kind of noise that detracts or impairs or inhibits. That is, the only thing harshness facilitates is harshness. And btw, harshness not to be confused with all the things in the world that are not harsh nor harshness.
  • boethius
    2.2k
    Well then, may all of your experiences be harsh. Of course not the Kantian kind, that's not harsh. As to your understanding of the psychology of the thing, that's equally bizarre. At the very least, harshness is a kind of noise that detracts or impairs or inhibits. That is, the only thing harshness facilitates is harshness. And btw, harshness not to be confused with all the things in the world that are not harsh nor harshness.tim wood

    You do realize the obvious hypocrisy here? Trying to curse me to a life of harshness in the name of "not-harsh" discussion.

    And why would I confuse harsh with things in the world that are not harsh?
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    And why would I confuse harsh with things in the world that are not harsh?boethius

    That's a good question. But apparently you do. You're a smart guy, so I reckon the reasons maybe are not so simple. But think about what the word is and means. Harsh is a qualitative adjective that names a kind of excess not itself intrinsic to the thing in question. It implies a degree of punishment beyond the ordinary. You seem to mistake that degree of that essentially irrelevant addition - the harshness - as the the thing itself, as the that which matters. Usually in the world, harshness is compensation for ignorance, or where the ignorance is known, incompetence. Harshness, then, is unnecessary and counterproductive; a fortiori, stupid.
  • unenlightened
    8.7k
    Have you even bothered reading my posts here?boethius

    Nice one. Do you even want an answer? That is not criticism, harsh or generous; its a feeble rhetorical trick to undermine your opponent without actually saying anything. I am simply flattered that you have nothing better to say.

    So I'm not bothering to read the rest of your post, as you begin, so I can happily assume you continue. And so we reach the denouement of your harshness. You win, because I can't be bothered with you. Enjoy.
  • path
    284
    A handful of privileged intellectuals in each generation take on the task to oppose evil with words so that the havenots can make opposition with actions, rather than simply maintaining and enjoying their privilege; for a revolution of language and argument precedes every revolution of political relations, and this is the only relevance of philosophy beyond entertaining parlor talk games; I rather try to take on that task than live in fear of the lightening strikes from high society and be deafened into silence from the thundering ruffling of feathers.boethius

    I like the connection of philosophy to politics, but I think you are leaving out a big chunk of relevance. In the quote above you are using philosophy to define a version of philosophy that gives you a role in the world, a way to perform the your philosophy-of-philosophy's version of the hero. I'm not saying that's 'bad.' I'm just pointing out the personal relevance of philosophy which is obviously connected to the political relevance. 'I am a revolutionary because...' Telling truth to power is a kind of role that can be performed. So is telling truth to telling truth to power, and so on.

    The forum has value because the harshest possible criticism people here can craft is both allowed and encouraged. Now, why not even harsher such as insults? Because insults are not harsh criticism, but the flailing about of a weak mind that no one with an ounce of wisdom needs strain their own faculties to meet.boethius

    I hear what you are saying, but I don't think there's a clean break between criticism of ideas and well-designed insults. "Maybe you don't have enough RAM to understand this, Michael, but there's such a thing as brotherly love." To me philosophy is not so much about careful argumentation as it is about the clash of paradigms or dominant metaphors.

    When insults are forbidden, it's perhaps because they are associated with a warlike attitude that is no longer interested in learning from an enemy who must be cast as totally wrong.

    Harsh critique does not persuade those that aren't interested, or are mildly interested; the objective of harsh critique is to try to actually get to the truth; it is of interest only to those actually willing to do what it takes to get more truth than they currently have.

    When PhD's submit their dissertation, the ideas is not only that it is critiqued harshly, so that there is some basis to assume it has merit (if it withstands harsh critique) but that the PhD student, so motivated by the truth, is able to accept and process harsh criticism (for instance, to then address that harsh criticism before the final submission). The critical method is a harsh process, not a soft process.
    boethius

    To me there's something complicated about getting to the truth as a goal. We do like others to think as we do, seeing reality the same way, take our truth, as we do, for the truth. But even this might be secondary to just pushing people's buttons with words that will make them do as we want.

    I like instrumentalism as a philosophy of science. 'Truth' is part of practice that reliably gives us want we want. But what do we want? That's where philosophy comes in as rhetoric for making this or that goal feasible, popular, etc.

    The dissertation issue is good, but is it simply about truth? The institution and those identified with it have an interest in its reputation and self-conception. Harsh criticism is a kind of policing in maintenance of the institution's prestige and brand. Of course the high ideal of scientificity is part of that, and there's some itch for untainted truth that is not scratched by instrumentalism.
  • Outlander
    1.8k


    Ha. Nice. :P

    That said it can test one's mindset, ability to focus, manage anger, faith in soundness and sincerity of arguement, etc. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger I suppose.

    I do think there is a big difference in an extremely critical yet logical assessment or chastisement of a belief as opposed to vulgar ad homs.

    Example. I say God is real, good, loves us all, and just wants us to be with him in love and harmony.

    Someone responds, "yeah that's why people are starving, suffering, and being horribly killed and raped all around the world right now as we speak. That's beyond idiotic. That's your God? That's what he does and lets happen? That's love and goodness to you? It's people like you who are why people view religious people as a cancer!"

    Give or take some vulgarity. Basically. The respondent hits all the valid criticisms. It alerts the issuer of the statement to its unanswered logical fallacies. It is up to the issuer to gauge whether or not he is knowledgable enough to respond or accept that more study is needed.

    As opposed to just a response of "You're a deluded f***wad."

    Now that respondent can and probably would include why. For example, there is no available, concise, absolute proof of God. Or that compassionate or trusting people get taken advantage of often and so seems foolish. Or again, the suffering.

    In a free and open society where free speech is allowed, it is to be expected. I like decent people. I tend to avoid rude or degenerate ones. Of course, speaking nice doesn't necessarily mean anything in regards to content of character so. I digress.
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