• Syamsu
    109
    What is a fact, and what is an opinion? (like an opinion that something is beautiful)

    Generally everyone already knows intuitively what the meaning of fact and opinion is. In common discourse everyone can convey an accurate fact, and express an opinion that something is beautiful.

    But if you learn these basic concepts of reasoning very precisely, then that will make you more efficient, and increase your power of intelligence a good deal.

    Starting with the concept of fact.

    Definition: A fact is obtained by evidence of a creation, forcing to produce a 1 to 1 corresponding model of it, in the mind.

    Example: Say a crime has occurred, and the police question witnesses about the facts of what happened.

    "he came at her with a knife", "he held the knife high"

    Basically the police make a 1 to 1 corresponding picture of what occurred. And that's all facts are, just copying from nature, to a model of it in the mind. Copying to pictures, to words, to mathematics.

    What to know about facts:

    • Facts apply to creations.
    • A creation originates by choice.
    • The substance of creations is called material. The material domain.
    • Facts are forced by evidence

    Now on to the more difficult concept, the concept of opinion.

    Definition: An opinion is formed by choice, and expresses what it is that makes a choice.

    Why the concept of opinion is more difficult, is because the concept depends on "choice". And if you talk about choosing, then you get into the socalled "problem of free will".

    This is where you need a precise definition of choosing.

    Definition: To choose means, to make one of alternative futures the present. Or it can be defined as. making a possible future the present, or not the present.

    The main thing to remember is that in choosing we are anticipating a future of possiblities.

    Now back to explaining how an opinion is formed.

    Example: To say "I find the painting beautiful".

    • The opinion is formed by spontaneous expression of emotion with free will, thus chosen.

    • In choosing other possiblities presented themselves, like saying the painting is "ugly", "gorgeous", "interesting". Any chosen opinion is equally logically valid.

    • A forced opinon, like to be forced to say the painting is beautiful, provides an invalid opinion.

    As you can see, the logic of opinion establishes that there is a spiritual domain. The spiritual domain is defined as all what makes a choice.

    Emotions, the soul, God, personality, the self, are all defined in terms of that they make choices, and are therefore spiritual. Therefore it is a matter of chosen opinion if they are real.

    It is a matter of chosen opinion what emotions are in someone's heart. To say fear is in the heart, or hate, both opinions are equally logically valid.

    Some opinions might be noted as weird, mean, or unfair. But weirdness, being mean, or being unfair, is not logically invalid.

    To deny God exists, is sort of equivalent to denying a particular emotion like fear or love exists. It is logically valid, but it seems weird. But that it is weird, is just my opinion.

    Take a close look at how to apply the concept of fact and opinion.

    The brain is organized in terms of decisionmaking processes. Purely objectively the decisionmaking appears as randomness. Because any decision in the event can turn out one of several different ways.

    In the event, some neuron in the brain may fire, or not fire.

    Then with subjectivity we feel what the spirit is in which those decisions are made, and express a chosen opinion on what it is.

    Then the decisions which objectively appear as randomness, become meaningful expressions of fear, love, courage, and whatnot.

    Basically in the universe in general, it's the same deal as with the brain. But in the universe there isn't much organization apparent in the decisionmaking.

    In the universe in general it's more a question of very many independent decisions, without an apparent organization to them. Like the atoms of a cloud of gas. The atoms go all over the place.

    In any case, still the same logic of opinion applies to the decisions in the universe in general, as it also applies to the decisions in the brain.

    One can choose an opinion in what spirit those decisions are made. Usually one would only just choose the opinion it is "spirit".

    What to know about opinion:
    • Opinions are chosen.
    • Opinions express what it is that makes a choice.
    • The substance of what makes a choice is called "spiritual". The spiritual domain
    • The spirit creates the material, by choice, and chooses which way the material turns out.

    Curiously, as opinions are chosen, it means opinions are also creations. Therefore opinions are material, and it is a fact what an opinion consists of. We can see, as fact, the word "beautiful".

    The same goes for a fantasy figure like Spiderman. It is a creation, therefore material, therefore factual.

    But if we consider what emotions Spiderman has, like saying "Spiderman is angry", then it seems to me the emotions would still be spiritual.

    In conclusion, the basic logic of fact and opinion can be summed up with the following creationist conceptual scheme:

    1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / identity of which is a matter of chosen opinion
    2. Creation / chosen / material / existence of which is a matter of fact forced by evidence
  • A Seagull
    466

    A fact is verifiable from the available data, an opinion is not.
  • Banno
    7.8k
    Definition: A fact is obtained by evidence of a creation, forcing to produce a 1 to 1 corresponding model of it, in the mind.Syamsu

    That's wrong, for starters.

    A fact is a true statement.

    What's all that stuff about creation doing there?

    Philosophy isn't just stuff you make up.
  • Syamsu
    109
    Got any facts which are not about creations?
  • Syamsu
    109
    To verify a fact, means to verify that the fact corresponds 1 to 1 with what the fact is about.
  • Pfhorrest
    1.9k
    I feel like I should have warn you guys about this guy, who has been going on about creationism and free will and the relationship of them to “facts” vs “opinions” for over a decade now, but whatever you’ll all see for yourselves soon enough.
  • Sir2u
    2.1k
    To verify a fact, means to verify that the fact corresponds 1 to 1 with what the fact is about.Syamsu

    If this is a fact, please verify using your own method.
  • Syamsu
    109
    Warn as in, you cannot just bluster your way through, with someone who has thoroughly studied an issue for a long time.
  • Syamsu
    109
    Picture factcheckers comparing facts with what the fact is about.
  • Sir2u
    2.1k
    Picture factcheckers comparing facts, and what the fact is about.Syamsu

    I did not ask you to tell me to use my imagination, I asked you to prove that what you said was true. On a one to one fact to what the fact is about sort of thing or whatever it was you said.

    Picturing thing does not make them facts.
  • Syamsu
    109
    A fact is a model. The fact of people verifying facts, is a model of people verifying facts. So a picture.
  • Sir2u
    2.1k
    A fact is a model. The fact of people verifying facts, is a model of people verifying facts. So a picture.Syamsu

    You stated this as a fact and I asked you to verify it.

    To verify a fact, means to verify that the fact corresponds 1 to 1 with what the fact is about.Syamsu

    I think that my cats have a better chance of catching their tales than you do of verifying that anything you have said can be verified by anything that you have said.
  • Syamsu
    109
    Either you are asking a nonsense question of verifying verification, or you just want a fact of how facts are verified. And I gave you the fact of how facts are verified.

    Probably you were asking a nonsense question, and you want fact to mean, to feel certain. Seeing as that you are emoting.
  • Sir2u
    2.1k
    So you cannot prove that your other "fact" was a fact.

    Got any facts which are not about creations?Syamsu

    Here you seem to be stating that all facts are about creations, could you please verify that this is so.

    Creation would mean that things are made by someone/thing, what proof verifiable facts do you have that any facts were created by anything/one?
  • Syamsu
    109
    Well, you cannot make a 1 to 1 corresponding model of for instance "fear". Which is in category 1, the creator category. You can make a painting to express what fear is, but it's not a model. And as there doesn't seem to be any other categories besides creator and creation, it is proven that facts are only about creations. But why don't you present a fact which is not about a creation.
  • A Seagull
    466
    ↪A Seagull To verify a fact, means to verify that the fact corresponds 1 to 1 with what the fact is about.Syamsu
    What is the difference between a 'fact' and 'what a fact is about'? And how can the two be compared?
  • Syamsu
    109
    Uh, you know the distinction between a model of something, and what it is a model of.
  • Banno
    7.8k
    OK, so go back to my question... What's all that stuff about creation doing there?
  • Syamsu
    109
    Facts are by definition about creations.
  • Banno
    7.8k
    Well, you will be aware that what you espouse is not a widely held view.

    Can you offer anything that might lead us to think that facts - true statements - are about creations?

    And how will you get around god? Presuming that he is the creator, and hence not created, there can be no facts about him.

    Which crack in your pot gets around that?
  • Banno
    7.8k
    ...and @Sir2u's point remains undressed.
  • Syamsu
    109
    My view explains the logic used in common discourse. Also generally every academic discipline was founded by a creationist.

    All in the universe appears contingent, it can be, or not be. All appears to be preceded by the possibility of it, and then the possibility is made the present, meaning it is chosen.

    That is why the existence of God is almost universally acknowledged as a matter of faith, which faith is a form of opinion. It is not considered a matter of fact.
  • Banno
    7.8k
    My view explains the logic used in common discourse. Also generally every academic discipline was founded by a creationist.

    All in the universe appears contingent, it can be, or not be. All appears to be preceded by the possibility of it, and then the possibility is made the present, meaning it is chosen.

    That is why the existence of God is almost universally acknowledged as a matter of faith, which faith is a form of opinion. It is not considered a matter of fact.
    Syamsu

    There are so many errors here, from the nature of logic through to the contingency of choice, that, well, one is left without reply.

    But a good rule of thumb is that when someone explains everything in such an idiosyncratic and obtuse fashion, they have of course found the truth for which mankind has searched since our creation.

    So thank you for sharing. Doubtless all will now see the way, and you can take your place as the greatest amongst us.

    We will erect vast monuments to you in the form of fractured terracotta.
  • Syamsu
    109
    Thanks. I was helped by that generally everyone already uses the correct logic of fact and opinion in common discourse. Also this was already made plain by the emphasis on faith in religion generally, that there is a distinction between matters of opinion and matters of fact.

    But we can erect monuments to commemorate the stupidity of modern people to not know what free will, choosing, fact, opinion, emotions, subjectivity is.
  • Banno
    7.8k
    But we can erect monuments to memorialize the stupidity of modern people to not know what free will, choosing, fact, opinion, emotions, subjectivity is.Syamsu

    It must be difficult, to see the world change around you, undermining the doctrine on which you depended. I can understand why you might wish to glue the broken pot back together. But it's beyond repair, I'm afraid.
  • Syamsu
    109
    Indeed, society goes to shit. And religion as well.
  • A Seagull
    466
    ↪A Seagull Uh, you know the distinction between a model of something, and what it is a model of.Syamsu

    oh I see. But then you have no means of comparing your 'facts' with 'what the facts are about'
    . For all you have is the model.
  • Syamsu
    109
    Why would that be? You have a model of the moon, and then there is the actual moon itself.
  • Banno
    7.8k
    What we need is more guns.
  • Syamsu
    109
    True. Everyone will want to start their own country, with themselves as souvereign, with a gun to enforce their laws. That is what you get when emotion is discarded. Then it all just disintegrates.
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