Anyone think I’m wrong about modern society (or agree)? — madworld

Loathing anything in the world is not productive, at least except as a starting point. One needs to understand and accept the world for what it is.

Well what exactly do you loathe about it? Is there anything you like about it? (Medicine is pretty swell).

The modern world is about minutia-mongering. How much minutia can you plumb the depths of? The most respected and necessary forms of output are those that are creative only in the precise ways that engineering, scientific, and technology fields allow. It creates the conundrum, you become the drone who must "mine" the minutia of technology, but this very technology frees us to think of other things as well. You must embrace the minutia of technology to get the benefits of it.

Technology, minutia-mongering is unavoidable. It is also part of the problem. Nowhere to go, and nothing to do. Become the drone and hope for some creative flow states at some points in your life, or hack it out in the wilderness, shit in a hole, and die of possible physical ailments.

You could embrace philosophical pessimism. The world was never going to provide the perfect balance your crave anyways. Your needs and wants will never be satisfied. Communal pessimism would go a step further and ask you find a community to find consolation and support in this understanding. Become the drone. Embrace the drone. Be the best engineer you can be by concentrating your hatred of the minutia in all the endeavors of minutia-mongering in your field. Write that programming language [yawn], crank out those numbers [yawn], write those tech specs [yawn], do that data testing, be the minutia, be the minutia, be the minutia...

Well what exactly do you loathe about it? Is there anything you like about it? (Medicine is pretty swell). — DingoJones

It seems to me that everything that actually gives us, say tranquility, are hampered by the modern era's way of life - socially if nothing else. Take community as an example: we have all been taught to include and in general be inclusive, which sounds perfectly humane and natural. After all, we are herd animals, and herd animals are meant to live in the herd. Yet people are lonelier than ever. In a very paradoxical way, everything becomes nothing.

I am aware that it sounds kind of ridiculous, given that there certainly are plenty of people having the time of their life living with close friends and everything (in modern society). I understand that. But surely there is a widespread alienation and loneliness that would not be in the state of nature? Just think about what we are doing right here, on this forum! I would rather have these discussions with real faces, wouldn’t you?

As far as medicine is concerned I often land in similarly themed conclusions, which I sometimes feel ashamed of. The thinking goes like this: modern medicine has severely inhibited natural selection, and consequently more and more of us will live tormented lives plagued by diseases and defects. The whole thing is really a veritable nightmare. As a human being able to empathize, I don't want anyone to die prematurely, but it's hard to deny that humanity is degenerating.

I found that quite thought provoking. Why is loathing not productive, except at least a starting point?



I probably would have picked an argument other than "medicine". What's the point in living longer in a world you loathe?

---

Advice from someone who has felt the same way;

Think hard about why you are scared of being alone. Think hard about why you want to get paid well. Think hard about what is unnatural.

When you're done with that... tell me how you feel, since I'm still mulling it over.

I probably would have picked an argument other than "medicine". What's the point in living longer in a world you loathe? — JoeyB

Good point.

↪A Seagull

I found that quite thought provoking. Why is loathing not productive, except at least a starting point? — JoeyB

If it is considered that the loathing is likely to be long-term, as opposed to a starting point for understanding and ultimately acceptance, then it is sensible to distance oneself from that which one loathes and instead look for, and hopefully find, something that one loves.

I don’t have much to say about society as a whole except humans will be humans and we can’t expect everyone to be perfect. I guess it would be enough to try to get along as best as possible. I live in Japan and after getting hit by two nukes the people there are super friendly. Maybe it’s because peace became more important, so aggressiveness was instinctively avoided after that disaster. On the other hand I often hear stories in America where anger appears to be the go to emotion. And no, I’m not saying throwing nukes everywhere will solve our problems.

As a real world example, how do you think the apartheid would have played out with that mentality?

There is a writer (forget his name) made the assertion that civilization has added nothing to make our lot better. We were healthier and better off before we came out of the forest. There's a lot of truth in that. One of the most awful things about modern capitalism is that it does not provide creative lives for many people. My response to the system is to be real smart about how I interact with it.

↪A Seagull

As a real world example, how do you think the apartheid would have played out with that mentality? — JoeyB

That is not a real world example. Apartheid had nothing to do with loathing.

It's ironic I suppose. Back then in a time you admire your chances of making it through the year or often even the day were a complete toss up. Now in an age you claim to abhor your chances of making it to old age are quite likely. Not guaranteed sure. But likely.

"The only paradise is paradise lost."
- Marcel Proust

Remember that, friend.

This fall I begin an engineering Bachelor's degree, which would be all fine and dandy, if it wasn't for the fact that I loathe modern society and everything it entails. — madworld

Ha, ha, yea, that's kind of a problem! Great opening line for a post though.

If you would give me the offer right now to erase my modern day knowledge and return to the times of hunter-gatherers, I'd take it. Anyways, now I find myself in the peculiar situation of having to accept it to thrive in it. — madworld

This may help? I just learned that the Yukon, a Canadian province east of Alaska, is bigger than California geographically and contains only about 35,000 people. Almost all these people are in one small town near the southern border of the province.

Bigger than California, only 35,000 people. Wow! It just makes me feel good all over to know such places still exist.

Lots and lots (and lots and lots and lots!) of elbow room for anyone who wished to return to nature. So, you don't actually have to accept modern society after all.

About a year back I watched a documentary about a young guy who moved way out in the bush of Alaska by himself and learned how to survive there. He had his dogs, his cabin, and so on. People have been doing such things for thousands of years, and apparently there's still space left within which to do it.

At the least you might enjoy exploring such stories and places virtually, and maybe find a way to put yourself in the story.

so becoming a hermit out in the woods is out of the question. Put plainly: I am deathly afraid of ending up alone, but can’t shake the sense that I'm selling out my beliefs/principals/ideals. — madworld

Sounds like you are twenty something, a time of life when friends are everything. Been there, done that, had some fun. Now I'm 68 going on 14, and am finding alone time more and more appealing, particularly if it involves being outdoors in the north Florida woods.

Here's a little trick which may come in handy sometime.

As humans we do need to bond to something. We need to somehow transcend the illusion of isolation which is generated by thought. However, we don't necessarily need to bond to other humans. We can bond to anything. The "secret" so to speak is that it's not the target which matters, but rather one's relationship with the target. And that relationship exists within our own mind, and thus is to some degree within our control.

So, for example, how does one bond with one's favorite place in nature? The very same way we bond with another human.

1) Invest a lot of time.

2) Open ourselves up emotionally to the experience.

If you are afraid of being alone, it could be because you just haven't learned how yet. And if you are twenty something, that seems completely normal.

Anyone think I’m wrong about modern society (or agree)? I’m all ears. — madworld

It appears I'm all mouth today, so we're a good match.

Your problem is probably that you're intelligent. Somebody should have warned you about that. :-)

Perhaps your intelligence has, without your permission, pulled back the curtain on the emptiness of the status quo, and given you a vision of the madness which is hidden within. And now you can't lose the vision. If so, you have just met the price tag for intelligence.

I don't think you're wrong, as it's super easy to document the insanity of the human condition. Now that you've perhaps seen through the illusion of human sanity, the rational question is, what will your relationship with it be? That would seem to be something you have a reasonable chance of controlling.

You might choose to run from the madness and become a hermit in the Yukon. You might also choose to run towards the fire and engage whatever forms of human madness you are inspired to confront. It's unlikely you will solve the problems you engage, but you might save yourself in the effort.

At your age it feels like your life will last 400 years, and that's a big burden to carry. But the reality is that you'll look in the mirror one day about 6 weeks from now and discover to your surprise that you're the one who is now 68. Whooosh..... It all goes by so much faster than you realize.

So, take it seriously, but carry it lightly.

Do your best, and forget the rest.

I really don't see any other choice; the only thing more unnatural than modern society is a life void of community and tribe, a life of seclusion and desolation, so becoming a hermit out in the woods is out of the question. Put plainly: I am deathly afraid of ending up alone, but can’t shake the sense that I'm selling out my beliefs/principals/ideals. — madworld

You seem to romanticize primitive tribalism. Modern cultures are not "unnatural", but merely different. They are evolutionary developments of human nature. And they are different, not because of human evil intentions, but because Cultural evolution changes much faster than Natural evolution. So, like the Red Queen, of Alice in Wonderland fame, said " It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place".

Just as Agriculturalism was different from hunter-gatherer Tribalism, modern multi-cultural civilization is different from ancient city-states. Romanticism pines for ideal states that were never true, and never will be. So your best solution is to adapt to incessant change like the rest of us. Rousseau's Noble Savages had to deal with their own evils & frustrations. After you go out and work in the Real World, some of your Idealism and Romanticism and Cynicism will have been diluted by pragmatic considerations. But don't give-up all of your innocent naivete. It's necessary to keep Progress from trampling on human sentiment in its evolution to a post-human world. :cool:

Romanticism : Romanticism was characterized by its emphasis on emotion and individualism as well as glorification of all the past and nature, preferring the medieval rather than the classical.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism
[ Medieval age was characterized by knights & lords & ladies doing romantic things like dueling on horseback. But it was also the time of landed Lords in castles, and serfs working the land like slaves. Was that a better life than modern wage slaves in air-conditioned offices? ]

Noble Savage : A noble savage is a literary stock character who embodies the concept of the indigene, outsider, wild human, an "other" who has not been "corrupted" by civilization, and therefore symbolizes humanity's innate goodness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage

For a more realistic and optimistic view of past & present :

The Moral Arc : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Arc

Better Angels of Our Nature : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature

Lucifer Principle : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lucifer_Principle

Monk, the obsessive-compulsive New York detective on American TV 20 years ago, once said : "I have nothing against Nature, as long as I don't get any on me". :joke:

W. Edwards Deming, engineer : It is not necessary to change. Survival is not mandatory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

Each of us is unique. There is no arguing that. Hence, each idea we have is also unique. The way we observe and think about the world is unique. There are very similar thoughts but never two thoughts are completely the same, not even in the same head. So, each of us, inherently, has something we can contribute to the world we live in (regardless its apparent usefulness). After understanding the extend of our uniqueness (which is not easy because it is so intrinsic that we give it for granted), I believe the next step is to look for that in us that makes us unique (that which I can call mine and only mine) and find a way to apply it to the world we live in. This takes time, lots of it.... lots of it. But I believe that if you live life with this idea in mind, it becomes easier since it gives you purpose, and the same idea makes society less unnatural since it helps you understand that society is the way it is because many of us have not realized that we have something unique to offer (not the only reason, maybe). A bit off topic, but I think it might help you. Cheers.

If you would give me the offer right now to erase my modern day knowledge and return to the times of hunter-gatherers — madworld

Who’s stopping you?

I think you are not wrong in your analysis, there doesn't seem to be a good solution to that dilemma.

Either you opt out entirely and ostracize the social part of yourself which makes for a poor life indeed, or you go with it and deny some of your other ideals in doing so, which will possibly lead you to burn out somewhere along the road. Going against your core values does come with a price.

What's left then is finding ways to deal with it.

Philosophy maybe can help a bit to form a better understanding of why things are the way they are, which can lead to some acceptance of the inevitable and re-evaluation of values. If your values are only attuned to a world that doesn't exist, then chances are they need some tuning.

Meditation and exercise could probably help in keeping you mentally and physically sane.

Another way of dealing with the disconnect is finding ways of to express yourself in some creative endeavor i.e. music, writing etc...

Oh yeah, and finding some people you can relate to probably goes a long way.

But surely there is a widespread alienation and loneliness that would not be in the state of nature? — madworld

Yes. Humans evolved to thrive in small tribes where everybody knew each other. But now we know our Facebook "friends" as images on a cell phone. Facebook was a technological solution to a problem caused in part by technology. We live apart nowadays because we can; because tech made independent living possible. As hunter gatherers, most of our ancestors wouldn't survive for long in the wilderness in isolation from the tribe.

Psychologists. for years, have observed the same thing you are feeling : an epidemic of alienation and loneliness. Previous generations of young Americans turned to Hippie Communes, New Age groups, Christian cults, and Eastern (intuitive) Religions in rebellion from the emptiness of materialistic secular society and other-worldly religious institutions. Early 20th century critics, probably Romantics, spilled a lot of ink decrying the fragmentation and isolation of modern civilization. But today, in America at least, almost everyone has an automobile, so they can get away from it all --- i.e. other people. But now, even the wilderness (e.g. national parks) is crowded. So, where do we go from here?

I suppose you are a practicing Secularist. Few religious people would suffer from alienation and isolation, because they have a tribe of their own. Almost 20 years ago, a local medical student started a meeting group intended to serve the needs of secularists, ranging from independent Theists to Deists, Agnostics, and Atheists. As the Universist Movement grew, we met both face to face, and online in several countries. But Secularism appeals to the intellect, not so much to the emotions. So as time went by, the lack of a unifying belief system, with a feeling focus, allowed the movement to stagnate and fall apart. Nevertheless, there are many other small groups, on campuses and elsewhere that offer some consolation for isolation. Just try not to become entrapped in an eccentric cult with a charismatic leader. :yum:


Alienation in a linked-up age : https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evil-deeds/201402/lets-talk-about-loneliness-alienation-in-linked-age

It was Rousseau that started me on the "loathe society, it's unnatural" path, if it makes any difference. — madworld

Seriously - there is not much to say: The young are far out on the gaussian curve of voters - society is not yours, and will never be until you do not care anymore.
Do something practical - maybe, as student/junior/whatever, you can work at an engeneering company somewhere. Thoughts do not matter. As long as you do not prove your fitness to survive (which might mean earning money) - in practice - you are unable to reproduce yourself and to survive.
Natural as can be: You just know you are scum. :grin:

Well, I’ve thought about it. Actually I thought about it so long that I forgot my login information and had to create a new account! To any moderator seeing this: it won't happen again.

Anyways. I’m scared of being alone … because I’m scared of being alone. How anticlimactic is that?! Some scientist could probably explain why I’ve evolved to be scared of being alone, and it would probably have to do with it not being good for the survival of the genes I’m carrying in my genome.

I want to get paid well so that I can attract and provide for some girl I’ll fall in love with, as well as to be able to provide for the kids I would want us to have. In other words, I want to make money as to not be lonely. I suppose my sense of loneliness manifests in an urge for romantic love.

I’m afraid that the question "what is really natural?" is beyond the scope of my intellectual capabilities, so I won’t even try it. That’s why I asked for books that could convince me to think differently. At the moment I’m just seeing the world through the values I figure to be right, what to me feels instinctively true, and through that lens the modern way of life isn’t natural; multiculturalism isn’t natural, (excessive) individualism isn’t natural, genderless society isn’t natural, our sedentary lifestyles aren’t natural and so on.

A recurring thought is that maybe I'm just projecting, perhaps I’m just scapegoating in an effort to cope with my inability to feel at home with my own being. I guess it’s not always easy to know what causes what.

How about you?

It's ironic I suppose. Back then in a time you admire your chances of making it through the year or often even the day were a complete toss up. Now in an age you claim to abhor your chances of making it to old age are quite likely. Not guaranteed sure. But likely. — Outlander

I’ve also thought about that, but its insignificance became apparent after I realized that I’m actively considering hanging myself.

Who’s stopping you? — I like sushi

It’s not so much that anyone is stopping me, it just happens to be impossible. But who knows; as an engineering student maybe I’ll try inventing a time machine and one of those memory-erasing gadgets from Men in Black.

As long as you do not prove your fitness to survive (which might mean earning money) - in practice - you are unable to reproduce yourself and to survive.
Natural as can be: You just know you are scum. :grin: — Heiko

Well, yeah. That’s what I meant by “now I find myself in the peculiar situation of having to accept it to thrive in it”, because “I am deathly afraid of ending up alone”.

Have you ever thought about spending some time in a monastery?

No, not really. It sounds interesting though, but also far away given my current situation. If I ever where to become religious it would probably be protestantism.

Well, yeah. That’s what I meant by “now I find myself in the peculiar situation of having to accept it to thrive in it”, because “I am deathly afraid of ending up alone”. — MadWorld1

What I was trying to tell you is that those thoughts may be symptomatic for the situation of being estranged from the means of your own reproduction. This is not cured by "thinking positive".

One doesn't have to be religious in order to spend time in a monastery. Many open their doors for all who require a break from modern living. Perhaps you will even find some souls facing a similar predicament.