• protonoia
    6
    Because they did their own research. :rofl:James Riley

    And you didn't.
  • Janus
    10.7k
    It's amazing: I had a good friend who said exactly all the same things you said. He thought, and probably still thinks, he was doing real scientific research by searching for and reading all the articles (most from right wing sites or at least the ones he linked mostly were) that agreed with what he wanted to believe.

    I bit my tongue for ages, knowing that if I told him what I really thought he would be deeply offended. Eventually it was too much and I had to speak my mind, When I told him he wasn't an expert, that he wasn't doing research but was indulging his fears and confirmation bias, that I was in agreement with mandatory vaccination if necessary on account of to many recalcitrants to allow us to reach the required vaccination targets and for certain professions, such as medical staff, teachers and so on, he told me I was just jealous of his superior scientific knowledge and ability to analyze scientific studies and he said I was a Nazi pure and simple. Now I am persona non grata, the friendship in ruins it seems..
  • protonoia
    6
    Have you done any "real scientific research"? Why do you believe questionable personalities without considering opposing arguments? Isn't that what real science is supposed to be? Why do you think I'm like your friend? Do you conflate everything with everything else? I think you do.
  • Janus
    10.7k
    Have you done any "real scientific research"? Why do you believe questionable personalities without considering opposing arguments? Isn't that what real science is supposed to be? Why do you think I'm like your friend? Do you conflate everything with everything else? I think you do.protonoia

    There you go forming opinions without evidence; the mark of a true scientist!

    Only those trained in the appropriate disciplines, with years of experience, have a hope of criticallly assessing whatever controversies there might be. Are you a virologist, immunologist or epidemiologist? If not, then you're not qualified to "consider opposing arguments". If you think you are you are deluding yourself.

    Unless you are a researcher in one of those disciplines you are not doing real science. And jumping to conclusions is not real science either: I didn't say you were like my friend, I don't know you; I said you said all the same things, verbatim, that he said, If that makes you like him then I have good evidence that you are like him, but I didn't draw that conclusion.

    On the other hand you drew several conclusions about me without any evidence to support them whatsoever, and that does seem to indicate the degree of evidence you require in order to form strong opinions.
  • protonoia
    6
    You didn't answer any of my questions.
  • Janus
    10.7k
    Yes I did, so I can only conclude that you just don't want to hear the answers I gave.
  • protonoia
    6
    No, you didn't. You only would like me to believe you answered my questions but you truly did not.

    Have you done any "real scientific research"? Yes or no?

    Why do you believe questionable personalities without considering opposing arguments?

    Why are scientists and medical professionals who don't agree with the "official" narrative blocked out of the equation?

    Why do you think I'm like your friend? Did I say you are...

    "just jealous of his superior scientific knowledge and ability to analyze scientific studies and he said I was a Nazi pure and simple"

    ?
  • jorndoe
    1.4k
    , if you were hired to make deniers and conspiracy theorists look worse, then it might just be working. (y) Keep up the good work. ;)
  • Janus
    10.7k
    No, you didn't. You only would like me to believe you answered my questions but you truly did not.

    Have you done any "real scientific research"? Yes or no?
    protonoia

    I didn't consider that question to be a serious one. If I were a virologist, epidemiologist or immunologist don't you think I would have said so? And any other kind of scientific research would be irrelevant in this context. Have you done any real scientific research?

    Why are scientists and medical professionals who don't agree with the "official" narrative blocked out of the equation?protonoia

    What makes you think they are "blocked out of the equation". I have no doubt that within the scientific community there is a dominant consensus which they don't happen to agree with, but that doesn't stop them from arguing for their position within their community.

    Being a non-expert, I follow the dominant consensus because I think we have good reason to think it is likely to be the most accurate, and hence the best guide. This is epistemic modesty; I don't pretend to be able to form my own independent opinion beyond what is the most plausible guide as to what to believe.

    Why do you think I'm like your friend? Did I say you are...

    "just jealous of his superior scientific knowledge and ability to analyze scientific studies and he said I was a Nazi pure and simple"
    protonoia

    I wouldn't have to repeat myself if you read closely. I didn't say you were like my friend, I said that he said exactly all the things you said. I didn't say or even suggest that you said, or even suggested, that I am "just jealous of (your) superior scientific knowledge and ability to analyze scientific studies" or that "I was a Nazi pure and simple". In fact I didn't say that you said all the things he said at all, I said that he said exactly all the things you said. He could have, and in fact has, said other things that you have not said.

    Are we clear now?
  • Michael
    9.8k
    So-called "virus" is 100% political scam. "Sarscov2" was never isolated; only extrapolated from earlier RNA and modelled via lab equipment. PCR testing is useless as the CDC admitted recently. Of course, all "cases" labelled "covid" still stand. Anyone who thinks this is real is uninformed period.protonoia

    All alternative medications proven to be effective are minimized and reduced to "fake science" or whatever they can come up.protonoia

    So there are effective alternative medications to a virus that doesn’t exist? Arguing for two conflicting conspiracies at the same time is a bold choice.
  • AJJ
    711
    A small number of people have a legitimate reason to decline the vaccine — say, those with an allergy. Others, particularly racial minorities, are mistrustful because of their personal experiences with the health care system, or because the vaccines are relatively new. Still others have struggled to get time off work or have worried (mistakenly) about the cost.

    Beyond these, it’s hard to understand any arguments against getting the shot.

    It’s interesting that the writer of this NY Times article seems to accept what I believe are most peoples’ reasons for not getting the vaccine and decries just one (appeals to freedom.).
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    9k
    Right, there are things we can't do and things we must do. And nowhere does it state that we have to mandate people to take a vaccine and deny them access to society if they do not. There is nothing unfeasible about it.

    I don’t see how it is reasonable to discriminate against the unvaccinated, especially when natural immunity can offer better protection than some vaccines, and the vaccinated are not immune from spreading the disease. It seems more reasonable and justifiable to discriminate against those infected with the virus, the only people capable of spreading the disease.
    NOS4A2

    The origin of of Covid-19 remains unknown to the greater population of the world. Regardless, biological warfare has a long history and is a very real and serious concern. Defence against biological agents is not a simple matter, requiring a concerted effort and a strongly unified community, with an impenetrable line of defence. We've seen this requirement. Rogue individuals such as yourself have no place in a society on the defence from this type of biological agent, and there is no other option but to "deny them access to society". In this situation there is some truth to George W. Bush's words "either you are with us or you are with the terrorists".

    Prepare yourself, as far worse biological agents could be in store for us in the future, and this is but a drill. Do you have the moral strength, will power, determination, and courage, to do what it takes to defend your community from these agents of death, or will you reject your community's efforts and become an outcast? .
  • James Riley
    1.7k
    Why would I want to do that?protonoia

    So you'd learn some humility and be in the company of your kind.

    Tell me who you hired.protonoia

    Every swinging dick and tit at the CDC and all their affiliates. Oh, and my doctor!
  • ssu
    4.5k
    So-called "virus" is 100% political scam. - All alternative medications proven to be effective are minimized and reduced to "fake science" or whatever they can come up.protonoia

    Yeah. Being logical is so overrated.

    One doctor that I know said this earlier this summer: we'll get shot just as we can get the annual flu shot. And history how pandemics have transformed sure would say that this could become the future.
  • NOS4A2
    4.9k


    None of that matters to me. I don’t care if the vaccine cures every disease in human history. If someone doesn’t want to put it in their body they shouldn’t be forced to do so, and for the same reasons that they shouldn’t be refused a vaccine—they are responsible for their own medical decisions. If they refuse the vaccine they accept that risk.

    We’ve seen what happens when we give the state the power to make our medical decisions, to violate our medical privacy, to override the doctor/patient relationship, to enforce discriminatory social policies, to regulate our personal decisions, what we put in our body, who we can let in our shops, who can travel, who can gather, and so on. History is replete with examples of why a certain subset of mammals should not be given the power to do any of this. Not only do we lose this power for the time being, but it is unlikely we will get any of it back. But it’s the perennial faith of mankind: while every day records another failure, every day the belief that it needs an act of government to fix everything reappears.
  • AJJ
    711
    A few quotes from an interesting article: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/pandemic-science

    “John P.A. Ioannidis is Professor of Medicine and Professor of Epidemiology and Population Health, as well as Professor (by courtesy) of Biomedical Science and Statistics, at Stanford University.”

    Most people...had never been seriously exposed to the fundamental norms of the scientific method.

    The Mertonian norms of communalism, universalism, disinterestedness, and organized skepticism have unfortunately never been mainstream in education, media, or even in science museums and TV documentaries on scientific topics.

    Broader public and media dissemination of scientific discoveries was largely focused on what could be exaggerated about the research, rather than the rigor of its methods and the inherent uncertainty of the results.

    In the past I had often fervently wished that one day everyone would be passionate and excited about scientific research. I should have been more careful about what I had wished for.

    As these spurious experts multiplied, evidence-based approaches—like randomized trials and collection of more accurate, unbiased data—were frequently dismissed as inappropriate, too slow, and harmful.

    Anyone who was not an epidemiologist or health policy specialist could suddenly be cited as an epidemiologist or health policy specialist by reporters who often knew little about those fields but knew immediately which opinions were true.

    Conversely, some of the best epidemiologists & health policy specialists in America were smeared as clueless &dangerous by people who believed themselves fit to summarily arbitrate differences of scientific opinion without understanding the methodology or data at issue.
  • jorndoe
    1.4k
    We’ve seen what happens when we give the state the power to make our medical decisions, [...]NOS4A2

    Right, fair control or all-but eradication of cholera measles meningitis smallpox ebola typhus ...

    None of that matters to me.NOS4A2

    Well, who cares?

    I might have mentioned Baffin Bay, Greenland, before. Sneak off to the great Bay, make a wholly independent living there, free of social life and other people, no one else to take into account except the occasional polar bear and perhaps an Inuit now and then. (y)
  • James Riley
    1.7k
    If someone doesn’t want to put it in their body they shouldn’t be forced to do so,NOS4A2

    I don't know why you would prohibit government from forcing the vaccine on you, but you would not prohibit individuals from forcing the virus on you. If the government has vaccines and should keep them out of you, then shouldn't the individual who has the virus also keep it out of you? And, where the burden is upon government to prove safety of the vaccine, shouldn't the burden be placed on the individual to prove they are safe from the virus? Like a driver's license? You can't get on the road without it. You shouldn't be allowed in public until you prove you aren't injecting the virus into others.

    As far as history, the individual has fucked over the individual way more than government has. Hence Constitutions, statutes, regulations, and policies. Has the government fucked over people? Yes, but the people elected the government so they fucked themselves if they didn't do anything about it. In general, the government is relatively benign, only regulating people who fail to regulate themselves, to the detriment of others.

    So, yeah, I'm in favor of locking you out of the public until such time as you prove you aren't running around injecting others with virus.
  • frank
    8.5k
    All hospitals require that their employees have yearly flu vaccines. Only now are they requiring the covid19 vaccine. Why did they wait this long?

    The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are new technology. The phase 3 trial system is based on evidence from the old technology. Just in case something unforeseen arose, no CEO wanted to make his or her hospital vulnerable to a class action lawsuit.
  • Michael
    9.8k
    None of that matters to me. I don’t care if the vaccine cures every disease in human history. If someone doesn’t want to put it in their body they shouldn’t be forced to do so, and for the same reasons that they shouldn’t be refused a vaccine—they are responsible for their own medical decisions.NOS4A2

    The government can be responsible for the medical treatment of people if the health of others are at risk, which they are in this case. That's why they're doing this. There's a history of vaccine requirements for healthcare workers and schoolchildren. It's a reasonable policy. Extending this policy in the face of a serious pandemic is justified.
  • James Riley
    1.7k
    Just in case something unforeseen arose, no CEO wanted to make his or her hospital vulnerable to a class action lawsuit.frank

    I don't know whatever came of it, but I thought federal legislation was proposed a long time ago providing a liability shield? There was quite the uproar about that.
  • Xtrix
    2.1k
    I don’t care if the vaccine cures every disease in human history. If someone doesn’t want to put it in their body they shouldn’t be forced to do soNOS4A2

    Perfectly fine. Just like it's perfectly fine to smoke if you choose to do so. I think you're an idiot for doing so, but it's your right. Just stay away from anywhere people congregate.

    No one is saying everyone must get vaccinated or face legal consequences. What they're mandating is vaccines for workplaces, schools, etc. Refuse? OK -- then either don't come here or agree to be tested more often to protect others. Vaccine passports for travel, also a good idea. Those that don't like any of this -- tough. Just like it's tough for smokers these days.

    We’ve seen what happens when we give the state the powerNOS4A2

    School and work vaccine mandates have been around for decades.

    Also, we follow laws every day of our lives. Some are legitimate, some aren't. You happen to think this mandate (not a law) is illegitimate, but that's because you're a medical ignoramus and, again, we're lucky you're not running the show.
  • frank
    8.5k
    don't know whatever came of it, but I thought federal legislation was proposed a long time ago providing a liability shield? There was quite the uproar about that.James Riley

    I hadn't heard anything about it.
  • James Riley
    1.7k
    I hadn't heard anything about it.frank

    The more I think about it, the left was the side complaining because the right was proposing limited liability for keeping their slaughter houses open and their illegal immigrants working hard in Covid-infested environments. They didn't want to be open and providing essential meat to the country if the workers could sue them for getting sick if they were forced to work instead of stay home. Or mask. Or something.

    My bust.
  • NOS4A2
    4.9k
    Yesterday the vaccine passports came into effect where I live. I now find myself in the privileged tier of a two-tiered society. This day only proves to me how quickly a mental apartheid, born of fear and hatred, can become a real one. Now around 30% of our population is denied access to much of the province’s economy.

    If one is vaccinated he can download a QR code from the government’s website. Some poor hostess-turned-state-enforcer will scan it along with government ID whenever entering a compliant premises. I’m not sure what this means for those without smartphones, computers, internet, and government identification, but one way or another they must find a way to show this code and identify themselves before entry. Perhaps they should sew it to their lapel and be done with it.

    It’s easy enough for the government to contract out a fancy new website and generate QR codes. The burden, however, falls upon the citizen, the business owner, the worker, who must now enforce discriminatory policies at the doorstep of their business. A friend of mine who runs a dumpling restaurant now finds herself in the situation where her largely unvaccinated staff will be serving her vaccinated customers. A false sense of security, it seems, is at least a kind of security.

    I’m not sure what percentage of people must be vaccinated before the government ends its discriminatory program, but I suspect it will be with us for some time. My only hope is that it collapses beneath its own stupidity before it begets acts of resentment and retribution, which will no doubt affect the innocent, vaccinated or not.
  • Xtrix
    2.1k


    Keep fighting the good fight against the medical community. COVID has a good ally.
  • NOS4A2
    4.9k


    When in doubt, play identity politics.
  • Xtrix
    2.1k
    When in doubt, play identity politics.NOS4A2

    Others play it, you live it.
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