But the tragedy of the age is that there seems to be no inner spiritual foundation for the call to equality, and this poverty of the spirit leads to a perpetuation of Otherness, of Us vs. — Noble Dust
You're politically independent and yet when the Right wins there is a problem (seemingly) and yet, when the Left was winning, no problem. When Obama was there, no problem. Having the Supreme Court enforce the progressive agenda, that to you, while a little bit oppressive, was good. It certainly wasn't enough to motivate a post, or motivate outrage. But Donald Trump and the conservatives around him like Mike Pence winning - oh that's outrageous! That definitely deserves a post >:OI’m politically independent and avoid politics most of the time (this thread isn't really about politics, although that's initially what I have to talk about to get to my concept), but with all of these issues involving the DAPL, Trump's election, systemic racism, Syria, other problems in other countries like Brexit, and the sheer depth of ideological division in the US right now, it has my mind churning with thoughts about oppression, suffering, and division. — Noble Dust
It seems you view conflict as oppressive. Not all of us equate oppression with conflict. The world is conflictual - that doesn't necessarily mean it is oppressive.In broad strokes, the courtroom-language of Protestantism, which provides the backdrop for how the Conservative right thinks about the world, is one of possibly many seeds that has given birth to current forms of oppression — Noble Dust
You mean the CHRISTIAN metaphor of God as a judge, and of mankind as depraved and deserving of punishment.What I mean by that is the Protestant metaphor of "God as judge", mankind as "on trial”, depraved by nature and deserving eternal conscious torment. — Noble Dust
That's because maybe we are depraved, and should thus at least admit to it. A disease cannot be cured without recognition.The view begins with humanity as depraved, rather than sacred. — Noble Dust
And how else should it be? Should God reward people regardless of what they do, and regardless of how they behave and act?God throws us a bone. — Noble Dust
Again, you assume later in your post that we should live in equality. I disagree.Conservatives are the last stragglers who haven’t climbed the last rock face to the plateau of equality — Noble Dust
Yes many forms of equality - equality which puts EVIL and GOOD on the same footing. Of course, any religious person would oppose such equality. Such equality is evil, and should be opposed on all accounts. Evil is not to be trifled with, but must be dealt with with strength.So the progressive left, the champions of many forms of equality - racial, sexual, socioeconomic - don't succeed in freeing themselves from the bondage of Otherness. While striving to champion the oppressed, they vilify the oppressor. — Noble Dust
Nope. I don't feel it. I don't want an equal world. An equal world would be hell as far as I'm concerned. That would indeed be an oppressive world. It seems to me you need to learn about this:But the call for equality is still something felt deeply by many people — Noble Dust
Nope. This is not Christian, nor Biblical.True equality means the abolition of all punishment of the oppressor by way of forgiveness; equality is possible only through forgiveness. — Noble Dust
How is it possible? How can God forgive Satan, while Satan remains Satan? That would be madness! Forgiveness is the response to repentance - to a change of heart. God forgives the thief next to Jesus on the Cross who repents. Who feels sorry for what he has done, who feels and acknowledges that he fully deserves punishment, and who, somehow, even desires the punishment.This is forgiveness: Otherness is dissolved and the divide between oppressor and oppressed is destroyed, and this transfigures the spiritual identity of both. — Noble Dust
One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." — Luke 23:32-43
Only when the progressives and those on the right drop their immoralities. Only then can it be realised. When they stop the debauchery, when they surrender their lives to God and to goodness, righteousness and justice. This means they stop breaking his law.The question for me is how forgiveness can be brought about in the real world — Noble Dust
But if anything, all this would mean is that God is obsessed with human well-being - because what you eat, how you dress, your sexual preferences, and so forth they all affect your well-being, that's their common denominator.is obsessed with our lives, what we eat, how we dress, our sexual preferences, whether we keep holy certain days, whether we act in certain ways rather than others, whether we believe God to be this or that, etc. — Ciceronianus the White
I don't think this is true. The reason for conflict is that some folks want their women to dress decently (according to whatever they set that standard to be, whether it's wearing hijabs, or skirts longer than knee length and so forth) - a rightful desire in its own right - and others don't, and think that's abuse (and other seemingly minor differences like that, with regards to food, sexual preference, and so forth). Therefore the two of them cannot get along, and will never get along. They cannot coexist without quarelling either, because what one does, will affect the other. There is only one sun in the sky and only one image of how it's "cool" to be in the world. If the progressive controls that image, conservatives cannot get their way. Their kids will be tempted to join in the way of life of progressives, because that's the cool thing to do. Their husbands, their wives, they will all be broken apart, slowly but surely, by an ideology which is the opposite of theirs. And the opposite also holds true. There is no solution, each must play their part in history and bat for their team. What Noble Dust suggests - that kind of forgiveness, that's basically giving the world over to progressives, and even he admits as such, for he doesn't oppose progressive ideology - only their manner of enforcing it - he does admit that's it's the "right" way.That kind of conception of God results in conflict as a matter of course, because we tend to differ in our opinions in various respects and as we think God prefers us we think those not like us are not preferred by God, but are in fact disliked by God. So, we act accordingly. — Ciceronianus the White
DAPL, Trump's election, systemic racism, Syria, other problems in other countries like Brexit — Noble Dust
the courtroom-language of Protestantism, which provides the backdrop for how the Conservative right thinks about the world — Noble Dust
The atheistic conception of human equality has no real metaphysical basis — Noble Dust
The question for me is how forgiveness can be brought about in the real world — Noble Dust
Materialism is ultimately no basis for any real metaphysic. Even the word metaphysic itself highlights this. — Noble Dust
your sass doesn't accomplish anything though. — Noble Dust
Fair enough, there's some opinion in my post. — Noble Dust
You did say it, but it obviously is about politics, so we shouldn't cover that up. We should admit to it. We play politics me and you when we discuss such subjects.As I said, this isn't about politics. — Noble Dust
Yes I have no doubt about that - your liberal progressive NYC friends probably went to see the psychiatrist because oh it was so terrible that Donald Trump got elected... I mean can you believe it? end of the world stuff :PSeeing my liberal progressive NYC friends spouting anger and hatred towards Trump/Trump supporters, etc. — Noble Dust
I am an Eastern Orthodox, born and raised that way, so it's a bit funny to be told what is and isn't part of Orthodox tradition. I can however see the influence of Berdyaev here - or a peculiarly Western misunderstanding of Berdyaev to be more clear. I'll come back to this.The metaphor of God as judge isn't part of the eastern orthodox tradition. Or it's at least marginal and not central. *shrug* — Noble Dust
Okay - what do you mean a sense of your own value or worth? I could blame my upbringing for a million things, but that seems to be the wrong way to go about it. There's nothing we deserve to begin with, and therefore why should we expect something, and then claim we've been hurt by not having it? For example - say you were bullied in school, or had no friends, people teased you, etc. Would your life really have been much better if such wasn't the case? Not really - you're just attached to the idea it would have. You'd just have had a different set of problems. But peace and understanding comes from the inside, not from the world.I can definitely entertain the idea of us being depraved. I grew up with this view. It's something I go back and forth on. For me, I think it was detrimental to my psyche and developement. I didn't grow up with a sense of my own value or worth, thanks to my Evengelical upbringing. — Noble Dust
No I don't.It sounds like you accept penal substituinary atonement, is that correct? — Noble Dust
Well I don't think it does depend on God throwing me a bone. It rests on me - but I must be accountable for what I do. I'm not obsessed about getting to Heaven. I should only get to Heaven if I deserve it. If I don't deserve it, then I should desire Hell. And to be entirely honest with you, I'm not so concerned with my sense of self worth. It's just not something that would matter to me. To have or not to have a sense of self-worth doesn't seem conducive to anything. Asking yourself whether you have a sense of your own worth - again, it's not conducive to anything. What is conducive is asking yourself what your goals are - and then working on ways to achieve them.How do you derive any sense of self worth from the idea that your entire eternal destiny rests on God throwing you a bone? — Noble Dust
But I don't view that you should do something based on the fear of hell. You shouldn't fear hell. You should desire it if that's what you deserve. You shouldn't be afraid of it. I mean could you live in a world where injustice didn't get what it deserved? I couldn't - and therefore I freely accept hell, because I feel and sense that injustice is deserving of punishment (unless there is repentance).Original Depravity seems to view human nature as worthless, moving towards value only through a fear-of-hell based acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice. Fear based views are ALWAYS, always a form of enslavement. You are absolutely enslaved to fear if you hold this view. — Noble Dust
Forgiveness upon repentance, not otherwise.Christ's impregnation of unconditional love (of which forgiveness is an essential aspect) into the world. — Noble Dust
Based on moral equality, not any other kind of equality. Furthermore I don't believe that we can even imagine - except analogically - what God's Kingdom is like because all we have as resources for imagining is this world. And this world is full of conflict and suffering, inherently so. Hence I conclude that Heaven is nothing like this world. I hope for it, but don't know what it is.If you don't want equality, how do you concieve God's kingdom to be structured? — Noble Dust
Me neither ;)I don't believe in biblical innerancy, so your arguments through scripture are not convincing for me. — Noble Dust
Well let's see. I find many things oppressive including:What are your thoughts on oppression? — Noble Dust
I'm definitely interested in any recommendations you have on Buddist reading materials. — Noble Dust
The clothes we wear, the food we eat, who we have sex with and how often we do, have little or nothing to do with our well being except in limited circumstances. So, whether we have warm clothes to wear will impact our physical well being in winter, whether we eat spoiled food will impact our physical well being, whether we have sex with someone with a sexually transmitted disease will do the same. Some religious proscriptions relating to such things may once have derived from observation of the ill effects of certain conduct, but others have nothing to do with well being, physical or otherwise.But if anything, all this would mean is that God is obsessed with human well-being - because what you eat, how you dress, your sexual preferences, and so forth they all affect your well-being, that's their common denominator. — Agustino
I can definitely entertain the idea of us being depraved. I grew up with this view. It's something I go back and forth on. For me, I think it was detrimental to my psyche and developement. — Noble Dust
Are you familiar with David Bentley Hart? — Noble Dust
I have a hard time concieving this weird, meaningless life as the only opportunity to develop a love for God. — Noble Dust
I imagine [sin] as some sort of virus passed down in our spiritual genes — Noble Dust
How do you mean that the 'image of God' has been used as an utlimate 'authority figure'? — Noble Dust
Where should I start with Christian mystics like Echhardt and Boeme? — Noble Dust
If you just mean that "God" has been used as an ultimate authority figure to devastatingly horrible ends, then yes, of course I agree. — Noble Dust
Not only. Eating beef for example raises the chances of colon cancer - that's why for example I never eat it. And there's many other foods that should be avoided, and that are harmful to the body.whether we eat spoiled food will impact our physical well being — Ciceronianus the White
Yes - but include in the ill effects not only physical ones, but also psychological. For example, theft, assuming you're not caught, has no ill physical effects. And yet, psychologically, doing such a thing is harmful.Some religious proscriptions relating to such things may once have derived from observation of the ill effects of certain conduct, but others have nothing to do with well being, physical or otherwise. — Ciceronianus the White
If the God is not personal, then this would be true. But if the God is personal - like a person - then this is likely to be false. I don't mean to convince you to change your beliefs, just to be aware that the belief is not as absurd as you (and some of the Stoics/Epicureans ;) ) want to make it seem like.Regardless, I think the God of the universe would be unconcerned with such things even if they were connected with our well being; I don't think the human concept of "concern" would apply to such a God. — Ciceronianus the White
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