• schopenhauer1
    4.5k
    Life is an abattoir, not an argument.180 Proof

    Hehe.. I can agree with that.
  • BitconnectCarlos
    681


    The problem is that the scope of this discussion is soooo broad and we're probably experiencing different problems so that if I were to give advice it could be completely out of place or inappropriate to the situation you're dealing with.

    In my case, I have... 1 or 2 main problems that I would like to fix. But I can still enjoy life. I have other areas in my life that I'm doing well with so I can sort of fall back on those.

    Since I can concretely identify the issues which are causing me trouble I wouldn't really describe the problem as "the premises of life." I don't know how it is with you though.
  • schopenhauer1
    4.5k
    Unleash your inner existentialist. We may take issue with the way life is and see no meaning or logic behind it, but if this is so, the importance lies not in this area, but in creating one's own meaning.

    As Nietzsche once said: 'To live is to suffer. To survive is to find meaning in the suffering.'

    From a philosophical perspective, I suggest research into Camus' Myth of Sisyphus or Nietzsche's Thus Spake Zarathustra.
    The Abyss

    Yes I am aware of these philosophies and am actually against them. You are aware that Nietzsche tried to overturn Schopenhauer's philosophy, correct? I think Nietzsche and Camus is simply the "accepting" crowd. I am a bit more rebellious than that in my outlook. Accepting the premises (let's just distill it to suffering in some way as you have seemed to elude to), is simply trying to justify that there is suffering in the first place. It does not turn suffering on its head- it simply enables it. It's not even clever. In other words, screw Nietzsche's idea of finding meaning in the suffering, haha.
  • schopenhauer1
    4.5k
    Since I can concretely identify the issues which are causing me trouble I wouldn't really describe the problem as "the premises of life." I don't know how it is with you though.BitconnectCarlos

    Yeah, I guess the "dealing with" part is how it is. I tend to think everyone has to deal with those dealing withs, and people manage positively sometimes, and don't question the dealings with. Others do question it (me I guess). I asked for advice on people who don't like the dealings with besides suicide or "go see someone" (see a therapist.. making it just a psychological disposition that needs to be "fixed" through cognitive-behavioral or other type of therapy).
  • BitconnectCarlos
    681


    I mean don't get me wrong... you can solve a lot of these problems. But when you just throw out like 8-9 different areas of life that people struggle with (romance, wealth, sickness, etc.) it's just so broad that it's tough for me to say anything meaningful. I'd much rather narrow the focus.

    I think in general though some of it can be fixed and others you just can't. If something is unfixable you'll just have to come to accept it. The vexing ones are the ones that are maybe solvable.
  • schopenhauer1
    4.5k
    I mean don't get me wrong... you can solve a lot of these problems. But when you just throw out like 8-9 different areas of life that people struggle with (romance, wealth, sickness, etc.) it's just so broad that it's tough for me to say anything meaningful. I'd much rather narrow the focus.

    I think in general though some of it can be fixed and others you just can't. If something is unfixable you'll just have to come to accept it. The vexing ones are the ones that are maybe solvable.
    BitconnectCarlos

    Well you are assuming this is about fixing something. That might be the wrong approach. The question is "What if you don't like the premises of life?" So it already points to the idea that accepting isn't even part of the equation. That would be more like, "How can I improve my life?" That would be someone who is open to the idea that there is some sort of positive building going on, that should be sought after. This is more like someone who knows well ideas like "self-improvement" and doesn't even accept the premises themselves, that others might find can be "improved" upon.
  • BitconnectCarlos
    681


    This is more like someone who knows well ideas like "self-improvement" and doesn't even accept the premises themselves, that others might find can be "improved" upon.

    Could you give me an example?

    I, personally, have identified obstacles to achieving greater happiness. I am working on breaking those down. I think if I were to break them down I would be thrilled and achieve a much higher degree of consistent happiness.

    The problem in our discussion is that "the premises of life" seem to be extremely broad. Some of them might bother you, but not bother other people so it's not an inevitability.
  • Shawn
    10.8k


    Well, I'm not familiar with the philosopher. Is it Camus? I only read his la peste.
  • schopenhauer1
    4.5k
    Could you give me an example?BitconnectCarlos

    The example is exactly someone who would ask the question, "What if you don't like the premises of life?" Nothing more or less.

    I guess I can explain by going back again to dealing with. An analogy might be something like a game. If you were on a game that you can't get out of except through death, well there are a couple options. Some people "accept" the game (what many people including you suggest), and then offer ways to get better at certain aspects of it. But then there are some people who simply don't like the premises, the very game itself. Yes, they know there are people with ways to "improve" how to play it, but they don't like the fact that they are dealing with the game, whether improving it or not, in the first place. I also think, as you suggest, that improving doesn't necessarily apply to all individuals, but that is a different debate. Let's just stick to the analogy of improving aspects of the game vs. not even wanting to deal with the improving or dealing with the circumstances of the game in the first place.
  • BitconnectCarlos
    681


    Let's just stick to the analogy of improving aspects of the game vs. not even wanting to deal with the improving or dealing with the circumstances of the game in the first place.

    Well, if you're stuck in the game you might as well make the best of it... the rewards could be quite great. I think the rewards could blow you away. I do believe the reason for the game is the reward (to be specific, it's love.)

    It doesn't really matter if you accept that you're in the game or not, or that you like the game itself or not... you're here, and you have one shot at this game (as far as we know) so pursue those rewards!
  • schopenhauer1
    4.5k

    Pollyanna. It's easy to say rewards, good things, etc.
  • A Seagull
    621
    Enjoy! Life is for enjoying! — A Seagull
    Say that to someone extremely ill. Is the illness supposed to be good because if one gets through it life seems better? You gotta do better than that.
    schopenhauer1

    Clearly you are stuck inside your own negative premises. From which there is no escape without motivation.
  • BitconnectCarlos
    681


    Well, if you spend all day hating the game and marinating on these thoughts don't be surprised if you find yourself in misery. Some thoughts that you have - and these thoughts may reflect reality - just aren't helpful and you should discard them.

    In the end, I'd rather be a clueless pollyanna than live like Schopenhauer. But it's your call.
  • Isaac
    2.9k
    An analogy might be something like a game. If you were on a game that you can't get out of except through death, well there are a couple options. Some people "accept" the game (what many people including you suggest), and then offer ways to get better at certain aspects of it. But then there are some people who simply don't like the premises, the very game itself. Yes, they know there are people with ways to "improve" how to play it, but they don't like the fact that they are dealing with the game, whether improving it or not, in the first place.schopenhauer1

    This is a statement though, not a question. The request for clarity was (or should be) over what the question means "What if you don't like the premises of life?". What does the 'what' mean?

    What [is the case] if you don't like the premises of life? - Well that's simple, the case is that you're going to either have a miserable life, or you're going to change your mind about the premises.

    What [should one do] if you don't like the premises of life? - This depends entirely on one's objective, you cannot derive an ought from an is without objective. The 'is' is the way the world is, the premises of life as you put it, but we cannot derive an 'ought' from that alone, you need to provide an objective - "how to I get from A to B?" is an answerable question, "where should I go from A?" is not.

    My advice - just lie down where you are. If that displeases you, think of something which would please you more and do that. If the thought of doing something distasteful simply because it displeases you less than some other thing displeases you, then think something else, something which displeases you less. Your thoughts do not arrive out of the ether fully formed that you have to just accept them by default. They are constructed by your brain to suit the behaviour you put them to. Your feelings of displeasure with the premises of life are not a rational judgement which you must treat as sacrosanct. They're just the story your brain thinks best explains your behaviour and sensory inputs. Change your behaviour and sensory input and your brain will change the story.
  • unenlightened
    5.1k
    As if liking and not liking is something other than life. Reminds me of the horror story of the man who was disgusted by the idea that his body contained a skeleton, and eventually found a doctor to remove it...

    I do not see a theme song on the thread. Take your pick:







    Variations on a theme of 'lay me down'. Note the dual meaning of putting aside and expression.

    Or for a fuller exposition of the philosophy, and complete marriage to life, perhaps this: "when I was deep in poverty, you taught me how to give".

  • TheMadFool
    7.3k
    So barring cliched suicide responses and an appeal to therapy, is there any philosophical insights for people who simply dont like the premises of life?schopenhauer1

    What are these "premises" that one may not like?
  • Artemis
    1.9k
    As if liking and not liking is something other than life. Reminds me of the horror story of the man who was disgusted by the idea that his body contained a skeleton, and eventually found a doctor to remove it...unenlightened

    That's a perfect analogy here.
  • schopenhauer1
    4.5k
    My advice - just lie down where you are. If that displeases you, think of something which would please you more and do that. If the thought of doing something distasteful simply because it displeases you less than some other thing displeases you, then think something else, something which displeases you less. Your thoughts do not arrive out of the ether fully formed that you have to just accept them by default. They are constructed by your brain to suit the behaviour you put them to. Your feelings of displeasure with the premises of life are not a rational judgement which you must treat as sacrosanct. They're just the story your brain thinks best explains your behaviour and sensory inputs. Change your behaviour and sensory input and your brain will change the story.Isaac

    The disposition is not about "change your behavior". That is implying that something should or can be changed. Let us say that really, there are people that simply don't like the premises of life, no matter what. It's not that they don't think they can't "improve" some goals in this or that (by simply living, one has to do that in some way, so that's not really in question), but the OVERALL game itself- the fact that this improvement is or has to even taking place. All of it is not liked.

    It's a conundrum. And we like to think of life now as a machine that can be corrected. Thus therapists and such are somehow the machine service people that ensure the outliers are running smoothly. There's no philosophical way out. Therapists have to be aboard the accepting crew. They need to account for well-adjustment in society. Nothing to see here.. Keep moving. Don't complain. YOU are the problem. This machine needs to run.
  • schopenhauer1
    4.5k
    @Bitter Crank @Artemis @3017amen @180 Proof @Isaac

    Ironically, you can be a miserable piece of shit in your mood, treat people like shit, but not openly criticize the premises of life, and because you are at least "contributing" to the game are deemed fine and worthy.

    If you are a nice, caring, friendly, person but openly criticize the premises of life, even if you are "contributing" you are deemed as unworthy. It doesn't matter your character, how you treat people. It matters that you don't denigrate the game itself, you contribute willingly and fully. It's all about accepting the premises or not openly criticizing it to be accepted. I see it here. And of course in open real world society.
  • schopenhauer1
    4.5k
    Clearly you are stuck inside your own negative premises. From which there is no escape without motivation.A Seagull

    No I mean it. Let's say you have a severe illness that completely ravages your body and internal organs. Let's say you slowly recover. What does one do with that? Oh boy, it's just a raw deal? Yep, yes it is. But what else is that? Well, that is what happens in a contingent universe? Oh yes, real comfort food there. Well, getting over harsh conditions, strengthens ones disposition? Besides, that one might have come out weakened, not strengthened physically, I don't know why that should be a sign that one is better off to now have dealt with more pain. It is just more grist for the mill. You are the grist in this case. The mill didn't like you very much. Keep moving. Keep working. You need to survive again in "normal" conditions. No one gives a shit. That's life. Just accept it. Try to improve yourself. Take stock. Look at the premises and do better at abiding by them. You see the theme I am getting at? Yeah it is just a bit cynical, but that might be what is called for here.
  • Artemis
    1.9k
    contributing" to the game are deemed fine and worthy.

    If you are a nice, caring, friendly, person but openly criticize the premises of life, even if you are "contributing" you are deemed as unworthy
    schopenhauer1

    By whom and why does their opinion matter in the least?
  • NOS4A2
    3.8k
    It’s clear that the “premises of life” are actually the premises of their author. Therefor Life isn’t the one in need of justification and reform.
  • Isaac
    2.9k
    there are people that simply don't like the premises of life, no matter what. It's not that they don't think they can't "improve" some goals in this or that (by simply living, one has to do that in some way, so that's not really in question), but the OVERALL game itself- the fact that this improvement is or has to even taking place. All of it is not liked.schopenhauer1

    You might assert as much, but the evidence is against you. What evidence we have (and it's reasonably compelling) is that what you like and dislike, your dispositions, are models your brain creates to suit your circumstances. You can fly in the face of evidence all you like, make up your own little fantasy world, but it simply is not the case that a person has dispositions that are not malleable by behaviour.

    It's like you're arguing "what can you do if you're born too heavy to move?". You're just not. It's factually incorrect that any newborn is too heavy to move so the problem doesn't exist. It's factually incorrect that anyone is unchanging disposed to dislike the very idea of life. People's dispositions can, and regularly are, changed by behaviour.

    If don't even want to make those changes, then what on earth are you asking for advice about? What kind of response do you think I'd get if I wrote a dozen threads whining about how I wasn't yet a millionaire but refused any and all advice about how to become one on the grounds that it would entail me actually having to do something?
  • NOS4A2
    3.8k


    Lol I love your avatar. Just noticed it.
  • schopenhauer1
    4.5k
    If don't even want to make those changes, then what on earth are you asking for advice about? What kind of response do you think I'd get if I wrote a dozen threads whining about how I wasn't yet a millionaire but refused any and all advice about how to become one on the grounds that it would entail me actually having to do something?Isaac

    Unnecessary tone..

    Anyways, thats the conundrum. The millionare analogy is not apt as in that case someone wants to be a millionaire. The premises of life are set. One has to abide them or die. There is no choice excepting suicide. The only choices are to accept the game. Thats no choice though. You are looking at playing it well or not. Im looking at it from not even accepting the terms, even if they are set.
  • A Seagull
    621
    Clearly you are stuck inside your own negative premises. From which there is no escape without motivation. — A Seagull
    No I mean it
    schopenhauer1

    It is like encountering someone who is stuck down a well and you offer to assist them in climbing out but instead they insist that although they are miserable they like it down there and invite you to join them. One can only walk away sighing and laughing in equal measure.
  • Isaac
    2.9k
    The millionare analogy is not apt as in that case someone wants to be a millionaire.schopenhauer1

    Right, which is why I asked why you're writing posts. You want something, some result which is not the one you currently have. If you're satisfied with what you currently feel, then there's no need to do anything. If you're not satisfied with how you currently feel then you are, by definition, wanting of some other state of mind. So you 'want' something (some other state of mind) but you're not prepared to take any action at all to get it.

    We don't need to invoke the 'premises of life' to explain how that doesn't make sense. That just doesn't make any sense simply according to the laws of cause and effect,
  • 180 Proof
    1.8k
    As if liking and not liking is something other than life.unenlightened
    :up:

    Reminds me of the horror story of the man who was disgusted by the idea that his body contained a skeleton, and eventually found a doctor to remove it...
    :sweat:
  • Judaka
    911

    It's funny because everybody else seems to understand the question and I just feel like a dumb person. I know my own problems. I know my friend's problems. I don't know "life's premises."BitconnectCarlos

    No... I'm pretty sure that you're just feeling alone in being reasonable. The chances these guys are actually talking about the same things has got to be zero.
  • schopenhauer1
    4.5k

    Going back to game analogy...
    If you dont want to play the game, but the only option is to try to play the game better, and taking suicide off the table, then what? Thats the conundrum. Its not asking for improvement plans, its giving the scenario.
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