• Enrique
    842
    I've been thinking some more about my new favorite quack topic, quantum consciousness, and I want to get your opinions. This is kind of longish, but I think philosophical types will find it interesting. Tell me your mad scientist thoughts!

    Some new potential mechanisms of brain function are in the process of being tinkered with and analyzed. Quantum effects as a feature of molecular bioactivity, a phenomenon completely unknown until the 21st century, are becoming the subject of cutting edge experimentation and theorizing. The high sensitivity of these molecular sites of quantum behavior to trace energy sources and their prevalence in all kinds of sense organs as well as additional tissues suggests a systemic function for reacting to, perceiving and in many cases experiencing conscious awareness of aspects of the environment lying beyond visible light spectrums, sound waves, shock vibrations and conventional atomic structure in scent and taste, a kind of biological responsivity to obscure phenomena such as electromagnetism, which we might incline to classify as "extra-sensory". Molecular mechanisms capable of registering the earth's magnetic field have been identified in birds, insects and elsewhere in nature, what has been termed "magnetoreception". The body's own electromagnetic field generated by the nervous system and especially brains may also broadly interact with these quantum state chemical reactions as an additional layer of organic causality, possibly offering a better explanation for the integrated, fluid holism of qualitative consciousness in contrast to the fundamentally dispersed nature of biochemical particularity as traditionally modeled.

    Statistically significant synchronization in the brain waves of meditators separated by thousands of miles has been recorded with scientific instrumentation, hinting at non-thermodynamic, "non-local" phenomena, a modeling of which will probably subvert many assumptions of conventional chemistry, though much more data must be obtained in order to form a solid picture of what is going on. Scientists are finding mechanisms that profoundly transgress three-dimensional images of matter, defying the billiard ball portrayal of efficient causality, which employs concepts of direct contact, equal and opposite reaction of the sort defined by classical physics, to describe the molecular scale.

    Science's thermodynamic models work extremely well in the majority of laboratory and industrial contexts, but the synthetic nature of human mental experience seems to be deeply disjuncted from standard atomic theory with its absolutely discrete nanoscale units and their time-lagged interactions. The most recent lab work in theoretical physics reinforces our more introspective intuitions, for the notion of atoms is transforming into a model of the basics of matter as more structurally diffuse, capable of exceeding spatial constraints characteristic of macroscopic objects, consisting of flowing and perturbing quantum fields that surpass the possibilities inherent in theories of chemical bonding behavior between localized particles. Consciousness, external reality and their growingly well-defined connection seem to destine a reconstituted conception of the physical, as involving quantum-like properties that contradict the classical paradigm of force interrelationships between collections of fundamental spheres.

    Matter is seeming more and more to be pervasively supra-spatial, transcending Newtonian physics in many domains of science, with the apparent role of entanglement, coherence, synchronicity, superposition, and retroactive causality inexorably increasing. Despite this trend, the classical model is not to be considered pure illusion. Though quantum non-locality undoubtedly obtains, matter evinces some intrinsic spatial properties that cannot simply be explained away as an artifact of anthrocentric perceptions. The phase changes in large aggregates of molecules, from solid to liquid to gas to plasma, spontaneously take place according to principles of entropic motion with much more affinity to models based on three-dimensional particularity than any notion of non-locality. It is clear from scientific analysis that as the amount or "mass" of matter increases, certain constraints on quantum behavior seem to grow in influence, so that for instance complex biochemical systems display salient quantum mechanisms significantly set apart from a general dampening of quantum coherence by large-scale thermodynamic interactions. Classical physics and traditional chemistry provide such effective explanations because phenomenality in its incarnation as macroscopic objects and motions accurately reflects dynamics of earth environments that subsist at similar scaling, with our spatially oriented sense organs such as eyes, ears and noses adapted to complement aggregated mass. Thermodynamic phenomena can differ in widely variant macroscopic conditions such as much more massive, gravitationally compacted black holes, where it is postulated that sub-atomic particles are not even capable of forming atoms let alone molecules, but bulk matter never, as far as scientists can quite penetratingly surmise, totally dissolves into a non-local, "quantum" state. Structural properties of substances at the macroscopic level look to be deeply consonant with three-dimensionality, despite non-local coherence.

    The consistent violation of Newtonian physics by phenomena of non-locality in perception, nature and the lab, combined with the only partial inhibition of non-locality by mass interpreted classically, suggests that the most accurate theoretical paradigm is one regarding the properties of non-locality in substance as primary. The more local phenomena we anthrocentrically observe to be "particles", appearing as spontaneously fixated structurally relative to light waves, sound waves, vibrations and our own bodies, in interactive dynamics inhering at or near the human scale, seem to then be a subset of the possibilities for how substance is instantiated. Macroscopic masses perceived as particles are modellable as "atomic" only under this partial range of conditions, namely as experienced by what we know as human-like "organisms" adapted to the "chemistry" (bulk properties of substance) of specifically earthbound ecosystems. Science currently theorizes these biochemical ecosystems in relation to some key phenomena enriched by analysis into overarching principles, such as "reproduction", "metabolism", "physiology", "natural selection", "mutation", etc., which gives us an only fractional but nonetheless workable comprehension of the causality in our environment that from a historical view seems to hold much promise for continuing progress of massive proportions, though also not lacking major difficulties.

    So, science has quite an array of accomplished conventions bringing greater clarity to the awareness of nature, in physics, chemistry, biology and elsewhere, yet some of our more obscure experiences along with new avenues of research strongly intimate that reality is not essentially structured in the way modernized theoretical modeling has tended to suggest, as a timeline distributed in a matrix of three-dimensional space. Three-dimensional objects traveling in apparent sequences, a notion characterizing the core knowledge of molecular chemistry we associate with superstructures such as macroscopic objects or life, is unique to mass and its entropic properties on an earthbound scale, which our sense organs have been evolutionarily adapted to find almost reflexively intuitive. What we define as material properties, with deep impact on life processes, are one of the main sources for our impressions of stability or mercuriality in the environment, its distinctly organic relevance substantially constraining and motivating human behavior as well as that of biology as a whole. But the structure of matter and bodies on our planet seems to have underlying facets of non-locality, and the mind taps into this more pervading, quantum-like substrate of causality as it perceives, experiences and is affected by the so-called paranormal.

    It don't get any bizarrer than that!
  • fishfry
    2.6k
    You know Penrose's idea? He thinks consciousness originates in quantum interactions in the microtubules of the brain.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind

    http://nautil.us/issue/47/consciousness/roger-penrose-on-why-consciousness-does-not-compute

    https://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/why-a-genius-scientist-thinks-our-consciousness-originates-at-the-quantum-level

    Nobody takes this idea too seriously; but like a lot of Sir Roger's ideas, his bad ideas are better than most other people's good ones.
  • Enrique
    842
    Current science suggests that quantum effects are crucial not just to consciousness but all biological systems. Tunneling is speculated as the main mechanism for the processes in active sites during enzyme catalysis, making it the foundation of metabolic reactions. Random diffusion in three-dimensions must be almost negligible as a factor in biochemical pathways considering the speeds and extremely intricate coordinating involved. My theory is that a densely packed, rapidly morphing cytoskeleton scaffolds vesicle transport and cellular chemistry like a flexible, evolving quantum factory, helping to bring all the key macromolecules into alignment so that their subatomic particles tunnel, entangle, and synchronize in coherence mechanisms, with most of this nanoscale activity happening near instantaneously, unencumbered by what we conceive as spatiotemporality. Thermodynamical atomic theory is probably almost an illusion in the context of molecular behavior in and between cells.

    I think consciousness might be an interaction between the brain's supervenient electromagnetic field and numerous classes of molecules that involve quantum effects such as the fast triplet reaction, perhaps in microtubules, ion transport channels, glial cells or elsewhere, also with an influence from non-local mechanisms of causality like I mentioned.
  • Gnomon
    3.5k
    my new favorite quack topic, quantum consciousnessEnrique
    The notion that quantum queerness has something to do with the "hard problem" of Consciousness has recently become almost mainstream in Science. But too many of those "bizarre" theories --- such as Penrose's microtubules --- are still stuck in a Newtonian worldview of Gear-like Mechanisms & Kinetic Energy & Cartesian Locality. But a few researchers in quantum physics and consciousness are beginning to cross the forbidden zone into areas that used to be reserved for pseudo-scientific Paranormal studies. The difference is like Steam-Punk versus Star Trek.

    The common concept in both New Age philosophies and Quantum Consciousness is a worldview that used to be called "Panpsychism". I have been cautiously exploring this mysterious realm --- beyond mundane space-time and physical cause & effect --- while trying to avoid being sucked-in to the charming deceptions of magical thinking. Magic is the ancient science of gaining control over nature by appealing to gods & spirits & animated forces to intervene on your behalf. But, in effect, it merely gives the magician power over the mind of the postulant.

    So, I have developed a personal worldview that carefully treads the tight-rope between materialistic Science and spiritualistic Religion. In that thesis, the role of supernatural spiritual forces is played by mundane Information : the functional contents of minds & computers, and the mathematical mechanism of Energy & Force. That's why I call my philosophical cosmology, Enformationism.

    The consistent violation of Newtonian physics . . . . suggests that the most accurate theoretical paradigm is one regarding the properties of non-locality in substance as primary.Enrique
    In order to make sense of such quantum paradoxes as "non-locality", I have had to accept the ancient notion of Infinity, where spatial coordinates do not apply. Then to understand "quantum leaps" and "supra-luminal" trans-location, I turned to the concept of Eternity, where linear Time has no bearing. Hence, metaphysical Infinity-Eternity is "primary" over physical Space-Time.

    its entropic properties on an earthbound scale, which our sense organs have been evolutionarily adapted to find almost reflexively intuitive.Enrique
    Although our senses are adapted to the negative direction of evolution, that we call Entropy, our sixth sense of Reason causes us to look for an explanation for the pockets of positive evolution that produced Life & Mind. My preferred term for what scientists call "Negentropy" is Enformy, which is defined in a manner that fits neatly into my general worldview of Enformationism.

    phase changesEnrique
    In order to explain the positive effects of apparently random evolution, I have developed a theory of Phase Changes caused by the positive energy of Entropy.

    and the mind taps into this more pervading, quantum-like substrate of causality as it perceives, experiences and is affected by the so-called paranormal.Enrique
    The quantum-field-like substance of Causality is what I call EnFormAction. But it is conceived as entirely Normal & Natural, and amenable to scientific investigation. Yet, to philosophers and scientists with a Newtonian bias, and a Materialistic worldview, Enformationism sounds like a slippery-slope to Spiritualism and Paranormal forces.

    I'm currently working on a book review of Donald Hoffman's, The Case Against Reality, which makes a similar attempt to explain human consciousness in a manner that takes the paradoxes and abnormalities of Quantum Theory to be natural and normal. He doesn't deny Reality, but merely presents a model to help us make sense of why Consciousness doesn't seem to fit into our current understanding of physical Nature.

    It don't get any bizarrer than that!Enrique
    Sure it does. Follow the paradoxical rabbit down the black-hole into Enformation Wonderland. :nerd:


    Enformationism : http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html

    Enformy : http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html

    EnFormAction : http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html

    Phase Changes : http://bothandblog3.enformationism.info/page23.html
  • Gnomon
    3.5k
    I'm currently working on a book review of Donald Hoffman's, The Case Against Reality, which makes a similar attempt to explain human consciousness in a manner that takes the paradoxes and abnormalities of Quantum Theory to be natural and normal. He doesn't deny Reality, but merely presents a model to help us make sense of why Consciousness doesn't seem to fit into our current understanding of physical Nature.Gnomon
    FWIW, here's a link to the book review on my blog : http://bothandblog6.enformationism.info/page21.html
  • Enrique
    842


    Some more quantum weirdness to contemplate! Does The Case Against Reality employ any similar sorts of ideas?

    In exactly what way consciousness emerged via evolution is a mystery, but we can be fairly certain about what eventually had to obtain in order for it to be possible. Initially, the electrical properties in aggregates of nervous tissue such as the brain needed to be robust enough that a stable supervenience of electromagnetic field (EMF) was created by systematic electron fluxing. The quantum effects in molecules of the body were sensitive to this trace EMF energy source, creating a structural complex of aggregate biochemical matter and sustained radiation. This EMF/quantum hybridization is likely responsible for the existence of qualia, how we perceive the unfathomably minute and diverse fluctuating of environments as a perpetualized substrate, perturbed by its surroundings but never vanishing while we are awake and lucid, the essence of perception or “stream of consciousness”.

    Non-local phenomena are ever underlying qualitative consciousness, both its EMF properties as well as the bulked three-dimensional matter that partially dampens non-locality, and quantum processes in cells interface perceptual qualia with non-local aspects of the natural world still enigmatic to scientific knowledge. Quantum features of biochemistry have likely been refined evolutionarily so that mechanisms by which non-locality affects organisms, mechanisms of EMF/matter interfacing, mechanisms targeting particular environmental stimuli via functionally tailored pigments in sense organs, and mechanisms for the translation of stimulus into representational memory all combine in such a way that what we call ‘intentionality’ is possible, a mind constructed to perform executive functions of deliberative interpretation and behavioral strategizing, beyond mere reflex-based memory conjoined to stimulus/response. Thus, qualitative consciousness actually precedes awareness, for qualia can exist and perform a functional role in consort with quantum effects and additional gradations of non-local reality while an organism almost entirely lacks executive, centralized control in the form of intentions.
  • Gnomon
    3.5k
    Thus, qualitative consciousness actually precedes awareness, for qualia can exist and perform a functional role in consort with quantum effects and additional gradations of non-local reality while an organism almost entirely lacks executive, centralized control in the form of intentions.Enrique
    As far as I know, Hoffman didn't speculate much on the precise steps by which Consciousness gradually emerged from quantum level exchanges of energy (information). But he quotes John Wheeler : "Each elementary quantum phenomenon is an elementary act of 'fact creation'" Which seems to imply that any permanent change in a particle is essentially a memory. So fluctuations in the EMF, that result in a propagating pattern (e.g. standing waves) would be similar to brain waves that signal information processing. Whether you could call those "facts" Qualia is beyond the scope of my understanding.

    Like Hoffman, I simply assume that there was a continual gradual emergence of more complex and long-lasting quantitative changes that added-up to the ethereal holistic quality we call "Mind". The "executive, centralized control" of thoughts and memories is a high-level form of simple feedback-loops in computation. How that translates into intention is beyond me. I'll leave any further insights to those who are more qualified. :smile:


    Quantum Consciousness : Whether or not quantum effects influence thought is a valid topic for scientific investigation, but simply stating "quantum effects cause consciousness" explains nothing unless scientists can come up with some suggestion about how quantum effects could possibly cause consciousness. The argument goes:
    I don't understand consciousness.
    I don't understand quantum physics.
    Therefore, consciousness must be a function of quantum physics!

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_consciousness


    Qualia are Quantum Leaps : https://arxiv.org/abs/1104.2634
  • Sir Philo Sophia
    303
    @Enrique, it is a great topic that you bring up here. You have some interesting ideas, yet I strongly suspect, in my theoretical work, that quantum mechanics is, at best, at the fringes of influencing consciousness, not a prerequisite for enabling its operation as your example biological process require.
    I, currently, model the qualia of consciousness as being centered on a cognitive agent having some type of sense of ‘I’ as being separate from some sort of external context.

    The only “I” that is present as you think about and pose your question is completely related to your conscious self. Under the cognitive framework that I am developing, the ‘I’ is not much more than a qualia resonant condition that takes form and flows within a cognitive architecture that requires a closed loop (potentially virtual) sensory-motor experience that grounds and shapes the metes and bounds of the cognitive agent into an embodied agent experience. Under my model the “I” starts from a random or ground state and starts extending itself into whatever has the highest degree of spaciotemporal correlation with the cognitive agent’s intentions. In this way, while the embodied experience is an illusion, it is an integral part of what you have grown to call “I”, even if embodied parts of ‘you’ become physically removed; e.g., much like the phantom limb phenomenon, or how a prosthetic limb becomes part of ‘you’. Hence, this “I” that has come to be in the integrated qualia state as an embodied agent cannot be one and the same with that soul-like concept which is thought to be in a non-physical, energy state, existing in another dimension, possibly (highly speculative) linked/synchronized quantum mechanically. That is, the only connection between the two that I can (wildly) imagine are purposeful patterns of non-random quantum fluctuations in your brain that could come from your ‘soul’ in another dimension, which may bias your embodied agent’s behavior in important yet very general, qualitative ways, but such a ‘soul’ (or non-local) connection cannot be directly part of your conscious ‘I’ as they operate in different dimensions.

    For the past 15+ years I’ve been, on and off (mostly off), developing various simulation models for all aspects of the human condition. I’ve put off consciousness for the backed of my work b/c it is the hardest area to make progress upon, but, realizing it could affect my global architecture, I recently (starting ~6yrs ago, and more seriously past 6mo) put in some preliminary effort to work out a first order model.
    I am avoiding any direct quantum mechanics as being part of my consciousness simulation model. I that way I’m thinking differently than the mainstream ideas you mention (including Penrose, et. al). However, I do find the need to use macro-quantum mechanic like systems theories to help establish a framework enabling the kind of flowing resonant conditions I’m looking for. As of now, the ingredients of my first order consciousness simulation model include the following:
    • Holographic phase space as the main cognitive fabric
    • Meaningfully manipulating confinement Boundary conditions to perform calculations and selective state phase changes.
    • Employing pilot-wave theory to achieve the macroscopic wave-particle duality I need to achieve a sort of global “I” (particle) state resonating with the global phase-space milieu capturing the whole at a point and the path taken (maybe like a quantum knot) being like a unique qualia experience.
    • I’m initially avoiding entanglement concepts in my model. Instead, thinking to use soliton wave theory to transmit unique wave packet signatures within this phase space to bridge distal parts of the system (possibly unifying a multiplicity of sub-module pilot waves) with a common, unified “I” ‘experience’.
    • Thinking to model each cognitive sub-module, of the multiplicity, as Bose-Einstein condensate types of phase change particle systems where they can only achieve quantum-like abilities (e.g., cognitive resonance, cognitive interference, cognitive tunneling, particle/wave duality, etc.) when they have been trained/cooled to a ground state truth (e.g., maybe like Boltzmann kind of thermal annealing learning, etc.) . As the sub-modules phase change to the Bose-Einstein condensate state they may interfere and tunnel with/to each other to form a global Bose-Einstein condensate state comprised of a resonating subset of the cognitive sub-modules with a global pilot wave path (quantum knot) which may simulate the unified “I” access and qualia consciousness ‘experience’.
    • A parallel linguistic framework.
    • A parallel statistical framework.
    • A parallel reasoning framework.
    • A parallel emotive framework.
    • A parallel sensory-motor framework.
    • A parallel imagination framework.
    • And much more…

    In this way, I’m looking at macro-scale quantum mechanics analogues as the most fruitful way I can build a consciousness system. I have no doubt that actual quantum mechanical effects (as you ponder) would naturally work with, and or enhance the macroscopic version I’m thinking of.
  • Enrique
    842


    The general form of your theory seems valid to me, though I've never encountered some of the terminology. How does a holographic phase space work? It would be cool if you could explain variability in the experience of "I" or "self" as a material phenomenon, correlated with specific molecules, cells and emergent brain structures, a synthesis with neuroscience. This could possibly help diffuse the illusory and implicitly exploitative nature of some modern psychology, so that treatments drift away from pernicious knee-jerk judgements and towards more real mutualizing knowledge. It would be great if you gave some consideration to the implications for practice and ethics.

    My initial thought is that the brain's electromagnetic field may be a material signature of the integrative function you're looking to model, so if you understood the way EMFs are generated by organic tissues and intersect with quantum effects in various cellular assemblages it might be a clue as to how those proposed modules of functional qualia are macroscopically oriented. Reactions between the atoms of molecules have already been demonstrated as sensitive to electromagnetic fields, magnetoreception in birds comes to mind, so that the brain's EMF is conceivably equally causal to a biochemical pathway, in addition to possibly being intrinsically qualia-like from the additive properties of its constituent wavelengths. A theory of brain waves and their effects would probably contribute greatly to a scientific explanation for qualitative experience.
  • Zelebg
    626
    Consciousness, external reality and their growingly well-defined connection seem to destine a reconstituted conception of the physical, as involving quantum-like properties that contradict the classical paradigm of force interrelationships between collections of fundamental spheres.

    And yet we do not know of any other physical structure directly except magnetic and electric fields. That is all we interact with, all we ever measure. Everything else is inferred indirectly.
  • jambaugh
    36
    Current science suggests that quantum effects are crucial not just to consciousness but all biological systems.Enrique
    Jumping in late here but let me share my thoughts. Your statement is true but only in a less directly useful way to your point. All phenomena is fundamentally quantum mechanical. The classical paradigm is a low resolution description of the underlying quantum nature.

    Rather than jumping from "quantum" to "consciousness" I assert it is better to understand the nature of the shift in paradigms one is making when switching from a classical (object with objective properties evolving their states over time) to a quantum (phenomena occurs in ways we can objectively record and the prediction of what is observed has certain maximally specific but still, fundamentally, probabilistic descriptions.) There's the model we use of "reality" and the nature of activity I'm calling "actuality" (parroting my thesis advisor). Things happen, we can sometimes describe it very well as objects with objective states interacting and evolving in time... but sometimes not.

    The point here then is that it's not so much that some new exceptional phenomena we call "quantum" is the "secret" behind consciousness. Rather the "pre-quantum" paradigm we use to talk about how things behave in terms of objects and objective models, is insufficient to even define consciousness much less explain it. Consciousness is a behavior that defies objective modeling. That's the premise of poets and theologians and Dr. Penrose and myself. I think it's a good assumption but even if it is wrong there's no harm in using the broader paradigm of description we discover from quantum theory to tackle the questions arising about consciousness because, even if these assumptions of me, Penrose and the rest are wrong, the broader description and method of analysis encompasses the narrower as a subset. If our minds are indeed a clockwork they are still describable in a quantum context given quantum description envelopes and encompasses classical description.
  • jambaugh
    36
    Jeeze that last sentence of mine was almost German in it's length!
  • Sir Philo Sophia
    303

    I'm personally not too focused on how the brain does anything b/c often biological systems are 'gobligook' ways to carry out otherwise more strait forward methods (think how DNA coding and control circuits are super redundantly/incoherently implemented), which can be theoretically VERY misleading. That said, I do inform myself of the biology to at least gain confidence that I may be on a right theoretical track if I see evidence of my direction occurring in the biological models. In this regard I have found one esoteric research paper that found an inexplicable phenomenon which I interpret as evidence for my pilot wave model potentially being implemented by the brain, which would directly tie into some kind of holographic phase space framework.

    How does a holographic phase space work? It would be cool if you could explain variability in the experience of "I" or "self" as a material phenomenon, correlated with specific molecules, cells and emergent brain structures, a synthesis with neuroscience.Enrique

    well nothing like that exists as far as I know. I am making it up as I go. Have not gone to implementation mechanics yet, just establishing the tools and methods conceptually. At a top level, I'm modeling the conscious "I" in an internal "imagination" sandbox which is a central resonant space that formed primarily via a sophisticated non-verbal linguistic mechanics and a holographic phase space. I think the non-verbal linguistic mechanics is more like ‘access’ consciousness based on my limited reading on the subject. A connectionist implementation model might be best for that in my system. For the qualia/experience consciousness I expect to rely on a holographic phase space where all the linguistic & sensory/motor objects are transformed into waves which interfere with each other and boundary conditions in meaningful ways. I am modeling the qualia/experience consciousness as a resonant condition that does not actually exist on its own but only emerges as the waves in the container sense the boundary conditions and propagation media landscape to form something you can think of like a standing wave which represents the wave states of the whole system. You can think of the boundary conditions as an internal cognitive boundary/shapes on one side and sensory/motor boundary/shapes on the other side and when tuned to a particular ‘meaning’ waves that pulse the system a resonance condition may form that captures the character of the system as whole in one standing wave, which could be read out with connectionist networks recognizing the various interference patterns. In short, I’m hypothesizing that qualia/experience consciousness is the resonant sound you here when you thump a container, which resonant sound (e.g., holographic phased standing wave patterns) richly characterizes not only the shape of the container but its material parameters, this resonant sound waves is effectively coherently ‘aware’ of its whole system in a way that you never could be if you separately analyzed all the causal molecules and connections that form the container and the propagation medium the way that Integrated Information Theory suggests is consciousness; thus, at least one reason why (IMHO) their model is devoid of the qualia/experience.

    My initial thought is that the brain's electromagnetic field may be a material signature of the integrative function you're looking to model,Enrique
    I don’t think the neuronal EMF in and of itself is so important b/c that has been measured a modeled extensively to little avail as to what the brain’s processing & representation modality is, which is a big mystery. I suspect it is one big holographic phase-space processor so you’ll hardly find any one node/area with discrete information/representation after the optic nerve projects Cartesian space images onto the visual cortex (V1-V4) on the back of the brain.
  • Enrique
    842


    I don’t think the neuronal EMF in and of itself is so important b/c that has been measured a modeled extensively to little avail as to what the brain’s processing & representation modality is, which is a big mystery. I suspect it is one big holographic phase-space processor so you’ll hardly find any one node/area with discrete information/representation after the optic nerve projects Cartesian space images onto the visual cortex (V1-V4) on the back of the brain.Sir Philo Sophia

    So in your estimation, EEGs aren't finely tuned enough to pick up the causality of standing wave states? What kind of research has been carried out on brain waves? How could an additive standing wave get instantiated in matter? Seems to me that a huge class of quantum active molecules such as pigments, specially adapted cells capable of somehow transcending membrane barriers, and maybe thus far unknown functionality in brain regions would have to exist for generating macroscopic waves.

    The point here then is that it's not so much that some new exceptional phenomena we call "quantum" is the "secret" behind consciousness. Rather the "pre-quantum" paradigm we use to talk about how things behave in terms of objects and objective models, is insufficient to even define consciousness much less explain it. Consciousness is a behavior that defies objective modeling.jambaugh

    All scientific models have of course been only approximate so far, so I agree objectivity is probably constrained. But I think the theory of quantum reality as a single, uniform, fundamentally probabilistic entity that classical causality resides in only works as a technology-based paradigm currently and probably temporarily applicable to the scale of multi-celled life in earth-like environments, capable of being progressively revised in major ways. In microbiology, some structures can buffer quantum processes from the decoherence induced by thermodynamic entropy to such an extent that they are extremely refined for nanoscale efficiency, not quantum "phenomena" but a categorically different quantum "mechanism". For instance, the one hundred percent efficiency in photosynthetic translation of light into chemical energy during reaction center activation exceeds even superconductors, or the extremely rapid speeds of enzyme catalysis, hundreds of thousands of reactions per minute including intricate feedback loops. To my knowledge, there is an essentially non-local reality indicated by our patchy current observations of "quantum" phenomena, then an earthbound thermodynamic reality as the facet of non-locality we perceive as local, definable spatio-temporally, and then a naturally selected quantum reality of relatively mechanistic function residing in biological systems.

    I'm personally not too focused on how the brain does anything b/c often biological systems are 'gobligook' ways to carry out otherwise more strait forward methods (think how DNA coding and control circuits are super redundantly/incoherently implemented)Sir Philo Sophia

    I would imagine that any relative inefficiency in DNA is because of the balance it must maintain between the coding functions and the self-replicative, mutational functions. Its biochemical inefficiency might be optimal for evolutionary efficiency, and is most likely unrepresentative of the nearly perfected operations in multi-hundred million year old, naturally selected biochemistry generally. Reverse engineering quantum biological systems into theory would probably almost always reveal ways to improve even our most effective technologies.
  • Sir Philo Sophia
    303
    So in your estimation, EEGs aren't finely tuned enough to pick up the causality of standing wave states? What kind of research has been carried out on brain waves?Enrique

    correct, not only are they aggregate population statistics on a region of surface tissue, but are only a subset of the kinds of waves that are known (and unknown) to propagate; e.g., there are many long range chemical waves that have been observed. While brain wave research is extensive I have not seen anything that motivates me to find them to be a direct representation of any kind of coherent computational framework. I'm currently modeling them as the coherent reference wave in the global hologram to select various modes/planes of phase-space behavior and/or to synch up the system made of very distal networks/modules.

    re "How could an additive standing wave get instantiated in matter?"
    if the propagating fabric was made of an array of nodes in a clear matrix format and all nodes only connected to its neighbors and only one kind/frequency of wave energy is transmitted, and the matrix is all contained w/in the same boundary condition then the standing waves would be visually/imaging obvious. However, each such assumption is violated with a completely opposite situation in the brain. Just think how hard it would be to observe a standing wave transmitted in CDMA, TDMA, spread spectrum, frequency hopping, etc. comm methods. Then to make the matter exponentially worse, the various standing waves might not be encoded into the neuron’s firing at all (so not observable in any EEG), but could be encoded in the pattern of trigger thresholds and/or synapse inhibitory/excitory, etc. factors. Then you have to map out and flatten the trillions of neuronal connections into a Cartesian space to ‘see’ the standing wave patterns/structure, which may (likely) not be a global wave pattern but countless sub-module resonant systems that aggregate into a global pattern. Then, things like consciousness (in my theory) are not physical structures to be found but time-evolving energy/wave flow conditions that only temporarily exist as a projected hologram in the internal (and extremely contorted, transformed) phase-space. For me, studying that gobligook is a waste of time on figuring out things like consciousness, cognitive functions, intelligence, etc. Developing my own theories/models (possibly informed by scientific observations) that get the job done is much more tractable/doable for me.
  • Sir Philo Sophia
    303
    I would imagine that any relative inefficiency in DNA is because of the balance it must maintain between the coding functions and the self-replicative, mutational functions.Enrique

    I strongly doubt that. Under the theory of evolution, it should be not much more than reusing/repurposing legacy code to be part of achieving new functions. Just ask Microsoft, the king of such legacy/redundant 'bloat code' . evolved complex software/hardware will always become spaghetti 'gobligook' within only a few generations, despite it achieving superior functional/performance results.
  • Sir Philo Sophia
    303
    For instance, the one hundred percent efficiency in photosynthetic translation of light into chemical energy during reaction center activation exceeds even superconductors, or theEnrique

    from where did you come up that idea? Let's not allow the 'magic' of quantum mechanics to be the stuff of selling snake oils...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetic_efficiency

    ...The Gibbs free energy for converting a mole of CO2 to glucose is 114 kcal, whereas eight moles of photons of wavelength 600 nm contains 381 kcal, giving a nominal efficiency of 30%.[2] However, photosynthesis can occur with light up to wavelength 720 nm so long as there is also light at wavelengths below 680 nm to keep Photosystem II operating (see Chlorophyll). Using longer wavelengths means less light energy is needed for the same number of photons and therefore for the same amount of photosynthesis. For actual sunlight, where only 45% of the light is in the photosynthetically active wavelength range, the theoretical maximum efficiency of solar energy conversion is approximately 11%. .. which results in a maximum overall photosynthetic efficiency of 3 to 6% of total solar radiation.[1]
  • Sir Philo Sophia
    303
    Consciousness is a behavior that defies objective modeling.jambaugh

    Upon what (theory or evidence) basis have you come to this conclusion? I see it otherwise, as very tractable (yet, extremely hard) to model and simulate.

    BTW, in my model, Consciousness is not a behavior, despite external agents observing it as such. Please explain how you see it fundamentally as a behavior carried out by the brain.

    behavior :
    "the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others."
  • Enrique
    842


    The Gibbs free energy for converting a mole of CO2 to glucose...Sir Philo Sophia

    I mean that in an individual reaction center complex associated with an array of chlorophyll pigments, it doesn't matter where a photon contacts the transport-active electrons in that complex, the photon will induce total energy yield. Transport is not a function of contact sequences between orbiting particles, but rather diffusion through quantum entangled wavicle substance. This phenomenon has been statistically observed in experiments with a specially designed laser apparatus. What happens in biochemical pathways beyond the reaction center complex as carbon dioxide and water are ultimately converted to glucose may indeed involve a significant loss of energy as heat.
  • Sir Philo Sophia
    303

    thanks for clarifying that. can you point me to a research paper on that you say? However, it does make my point that while the plant benefits from quantum 'magic' stuff at the nano/micro scale the magic stuff/process is quickly lost when the system has more than a 1000 atoms, where classical problems/losses/processes take over. So, does not scale up to be the framework or foundation for any macro-scale system, unless, for example, you macro system is based on a requiring perfect random number generator. ;-)
  • Enrique
    842


    That info about photosynthetic reaction centers is from a book, Life on the Edge: The Coming of Age of Quantum Biology. Its extremely well-written, easy to read, and enlightening.

    does not scale up to be the framework or foundation for any macro-scale systemSir Philo Sophia

    Regarding issues of complexity, it goes without saying that cells of the brain - neurons, glia, and so on - are categorically different in hybrid structure from a photosynthetic adaptation such as a leaf cell - grana, chloroplasts and all that - so there may be uniquely cognitive working mechanisms for sustaining qualia at multiple levels against thermodynamic disorder, with various EMF forms integrating all these units of functional entanglement and coherence via broad effects on the quantum reactions in assemblies of molecules. How all of this could be measured is quite the conundrum, as you described.
  • Sir Philo Sophia
    303
    so there may be uniquely cognitive working mechanisms for sustaining qualia at multiple levels against thermodynamic disorder,Enrique

    why are you so convinced that qualia consciousness must arise from the quantum effects instead of simply being a macro-scale phenomenon w/o requiring the quantum effects to do its cool stuff?
  • Enrique
    842
    why are you so convinced that qualia consciousness must arise from the quantum effects instead of simply being a macro-scale phenomenon w/o requiring the quantum effects to do its cool stuff?Sir Philo Sophia

    We had a lengthy discussion on this topic in the first Qualia and Quantum Mechanics post that contains the seeds of the idea, you can find it in the philosophy of mind section. Basically, particle interactions are time-lagged, while perceptual consciousness isn't. We don't experience the world as a flurry of our constituent atoms, but rather as a perpetualized substrate, an integrated field of awareness. I hypothesized that this binding agent was the electromagnetic field of the brain interacting with relative locality via sense-perception and relative non-locality via quantum effects in molecules. This explains image qualia and some of the paranormal, but how do you account for feelings, tastes, sounds, smells, and so on? My hypothesis was that all qualia emerge from extremely complex additive properties of quantum entangled and superpositioned wavicles, so qualitative experience is actually a component of the matter itself rather than being an incoherently conceived immaterial supervenience either generated as an illusion or transcending the empirical world. This perhaps resolves the perennial mind/body problem of philosophy.
  • Sir Philo Sophia
    303
    . Basically, particle interactions are time-lagged, while perceptual consciousness isn't.Enrique

    this does not make any sense to me. For example, perceptual consciousness (which BTW requires many particle interactions) is measured to take at least 100ms b/c it require all the layers of neural nets, each to a delay, to aggregate their signals to form a mental perception for you.

    We don't experience the world as a flurry of our constituent atoms, but rather as a perpetualized substrate, an integrated field of awareness.Enrique

    that is demonstrably not true. it is well documented that the brain pieces together its fake version of what your raw sensory data is providing and is certainly not coherent at first. For example, many autistic people exactly have this mental problem that their brains to no present them with “an integrated field of awareness”, it comes to them incoherently in fits and starts, bits and pieces. So, are you saying, for example, that those autistic people have less qualia consciousness than you do?
  • Enrique
    842
    Without tissue being equivalent to qualia, no qualia can exist, that's the entire mind/body problem from an empirical angle. Quantum physics possibly explains how tissue can be equivalent to qualia at a very basic, non-metaphorical level. Qualitative experiences can differ, but awareness itself may be extremely integral to the structure of reality, though not of course absolutely fundamental. Experience is a lot more than what so-called sensory data can account for. Perhaps we can move from computational analogies and loose correlations that ignore all sorts of phenomena to a model of actual causality.
  • Sir Philo Sophia
    303
    Without tissue being equivalent to qualia, no qualia can exist, that's the entire mind/body problem from an empirical angle.Enrique

    with what evidence do to you back up that otherwise leap to conclusion?

    Perhaps we can move from computational analogies and loose correlations that ignore all sorts of phenomena to a model of actual causality.Enrique

    how does my proposed model "ignore all sorts of phenomena " and fails to enable " model of actual causality". At minimum, philosophical logic should produce plausible/realistic systems in the context of the scientific method and known/likely true facts. So, if you cannot be factual, concrete and specific then these seem to be just feelings and conclusory ideas you have, which generally would not be so helpful moving us closer towards to the truth.
  • jambaugh
    36

    My apologies for the very long delay in reply (too many irons in the proverbial fire). And let me also qualify that I've not read through the discussion yet. But to directly answer your question...

    A proper answer would require a proper definition of consciousness which is, of course, problematic. But the feature of consciousness that I can point to which reinforces my thesis is that consciousness is unboundedly self reflective. Consciousness as we consider it for ourselves is transcendent (in a non-metaphysical sense) in that a conscious entity is aware of its own consciousness.

    A tiger may be aware of its prey. A tiger may also be aware of itself in relation to its prey (hungry, personal ability, relative size, stalking position etc) but, I would argue, a tiger falls short of consciousness, at the level I am imagining it, in that it is not conscious of its own process of cognition. It cannot ask the question "is it right that I hunt this prey?". The ethics question can only occur with a conscious entity because only a conscious entity can deal with the meta-question that comes with the realization that an ethic (value system applied to choices of behavior) per-supposes a meta-ethic (which ethic is better since the choice of ethics itself is a choice of behavior) because the conscious entity is self reflective.

    It is like the fact that given a mirror one sees a copy of an image of the world, but given two mirrors facing each other one sees an infinite regress of recursive images of the world. The existence of consciousness in an entity allows it to explore that infinite regress as far as it chooses (though always to a finite degree of actualization). This is how we distinguish a computer from a conscious entity. Both can contemplate a starting condition, "one". Both can consider an act of iteration, "next". But only a conscious entity can appreciate the futility (sometimes) of the futility of forever chasing that "next' without realizing that the goal (which we symbolize as "infinity") cannot be reached. More to-the-point the conscious entity realizes that futility of this process ("infinity" is to the conscious entity a symbol taking the place of the absent boundary).

    The conscious entity can escape the infinite loop trap because the conscious entity can reflect on the task of striving itself.

    Okay, so with these reflections on the conscious entity, I argue that any objective model must necessarily fall short of describing the conscious entity because the conscious entity himself by (imperfect but adequate) definition must be able to transcend (again in this non-metaphysical meaning) the model. The conscious entity models itself in some limited by meaningful way.

    Bringing to down to a more concrete level, I see a strong analog to the modeling of quantum mechanical systems (my expertise) and modeling conscious entities. To observe a quantum system we realize that the act of observation is of such significance as to undermine the validity of other (complementary/non-compatible) observables. We lose the ability to describe the quantum system in terms of an objective state of all observable properties. Similarly with a conscious entity, to "measure" the state, to observe those variables which affect the conscious entity's behavior requires we interact in a meaningful way, specifically a way meaningful to that conscious entity and thus the entity is perturbed in a way invalidating other complementary/ non-compatible variables.

    In a very specific example consider how a questionnaire on one's political "state" can, merely by virtue of rearranging the order in which questions are asked change the outcome of the answers. We can see this empirically via statistical analysis of cases. This means that the act of observing the conscious entity necessarily will affect that entity in ways that, for the very same reason it occurs for quantum systems, invalidates the objective description of said entity.

    That's my immediate thoughts on the matter. I'm welcome to feedback to refine my opinion.
  • Sir Philo Sophia
    303
    I disagree with your various Views and approaches to the problem, however, I very much like your direction and style of thinking. Generally, I find them very Projecting and anthropomorphic. However, because you likewise come from the hard sciences, your points are very worthy of addressing, as I do so In some detail below.

    A proper answer would require a proper definition of consciousness which is, of course, problematic.jambaugh
    Yes, historically that has been the main problem. I believe I am making very good progress on a formal definition of consciousness. I have an initial framework that seems to be useful in coherent. I am even making some practical progress on the hard problem of qualia, at least for certain types.

    consciousness is unboundedly self reflective.jambaugh
    As with your Tiger analogy below, I believe you are distinguishing a certain type of higher order consciousness that I don't Reason or believe is the structure of consciousness. If I understand you right then you are subscribing to the higher order of consciousness. For example, Please explain how Such self consciousness (metacognition) is a requirement Of, subset of, Or a part of, or enabling of qualia. For A simple example, for me to "see" the color red I need not be self-aware that I am watching the color red. Any theory of consciousness that does not include and handle the hard problem of consciousness, qualia, is woefully incomplete at best and completely off base at worse.

    but, I would argue, a tiger falls short of consciousness, at the level I am imagining it, in that it is not conscious of its own process of cognition.jambaugh
    Metacognition is an epiphenomenon of consciousness not it's foundation. Similar to how symbolic logic was supposed to solve Artificial intelligence, yet turned out to not be the foundation of human reasoning, so utterly failed when attempting to grounded into Real-world implementation. Again, you are projecting at the macro level of Human consciousness, Which has little to do with the micro building block structure of it.

    It cannot ask the question "is it right that I hunt this prey?".jambaugh
    You certainly do not need metacognition to do that. Moreover, many animals, Including rodents close, have been demonstrated to possess Counterfactual reasoning, which is exactly that sort of (Self)reflective Thought of what I should've done instead to get a better result.

    It is like the fact that given a mirror one sees a copy of an image of the world, but given two mirrors facing each other one sees an infinite regress of recursive images of the world. Tjambaugh

    That is degenerate feedback, and chaotic. It is an interesting analogy which I have thought of yet do not yet see where it is useful or applies.

    The existence of consciousness in an entity allows it to explore that infinite regress as far as it chooses (though always to a finite degree of actualization). This is how we distinguish a computer from a conscious entity. ... More to-the-point the conscious entity realizes that futility of this process ("infinity" is to the conscious entity a symbol taking the place of the absent boundary).jambaugh

    The degenerate Self images is not an infinite regress and are only Scaled facsimiles of the original So are not very useful for much of anything except some types of More efficient pattern recognition And template matching. You seem to be just narrating what any recursive iterative process would have to do to regulate itself from rehearsing to infinity, so, having a stop condition or observing divergence or lack of sufficient conjugal convergence, Are not particularly Unique Elements of consciousness. Any AI computer can be programmed to do what you say here.

    The conscious entity can escape the infinite loop trap because the conscious entity can reflect on the task of striving itself.jambaugh
    Seems you are just doing a lot of arm waving on your feeling of self regulation when trying to solve the recursive problem. Even insects know when to give up when their efforts are not sufficiently productive enough. Very programmable you do not need any fancy kind of higher order theory of consciousness.

    Okay, so with these reflections on the conscious entity, I argue that any objective model must necessarily fall short of describing the conscious entity because the conscious entity himself by (imperfect but adequate) definition must be able to transcend (again in this non-metaphysical meaning) the model. The conscious entity models itself in some limited by meaningful way.jambaugh

    I don't think you have substantiated your Claim as I exemplify above. Moreover, just because a process is highly sensitive to its initial Conditions and highly sensitive to perturbations of its variables, such As interactions with its environment, does not mean it is anything more than a chaotic state machine with self referential loops.


    Bringing to down to a more concrete level, I see a strong analog to the modeling of quantum mechanical systems (my expertise) and modeling conscious entities.jambaugh

    I believe you are contradicting yourself here because on one hand you say consciousness cannot be Objectively modeled because It's exact state and time evolution depends on interactions with the environment, yet quantum mechanics Has similar dynamics and is is one of the best Objectively modeled And experimentally verified natural phenomenon in nature.

    We lose the ability to describe the quantum system in terms of an objective state of all observable properties. Similarly with a conscious entity, to "measure" the state, to observe those variables which affect the conscious entity's behavior requires we interact in a meaningful way, specifically a way meaningful to that conscious entity and thus the entity is perturbed in a way invalidating other complementary/ non-compatible variables.jambaugh

    I don't believe you are thinking about that right in the context of consciousness. For some inconsistent reason, you are allowing quantum systems to exist in the superposition of all possible states and properties with certain probability distributions that are collapsed into one when observed or interacting with an external system, yet when it comes to consciousness you Require it to be a sequential iterative process that can only take one Recursive, Even if chaotic, path.

    This means that the act of observing the conscious entity necessarily will affect that entity in ways that, for the very same reason it occurs for quantum systems, invalidates the objective description of said entity.jambaugh

    This is where I do not understand your line of reasoning Or even goals. An objective model does not have to define a Single deterministic State of a system in its configuration space. Nor does it, likewise, have to define a certain time evolution path from such a single deterministic state to a next. It is sufficient, for an objective model, to specify a boundary Within which a certain set of states exist Even if they are in flux, and various transition probabilities to Such a cloud of next states, Which transition probabilities may depend on any number of chaotic factors including self reflections or external perturbations. Like quantum mechanics, The fact that the end state is not 100% deterministic relative to its internal configuration space is not dispositive of the Observable Conscious process being objectively modeled.

    I look forward to your refined thoughts and/Or clarifications to my above.

    Cheers!
  • SolarWind
    204
    My hypothesis was that all qualia emerge from extremely complex additive properties of quantum entangled and superpositioned wavicles, so qualitative experience is actually a component of the matter itself rather than being an incoherently conceived immaterial supervenience either generated as an illusion or transcending the empirical world. This perhaps resolves the perennial mind/body problem of philosophy.Enrique

    Suppose we lived in a world where atomic stability came not from quantum mechanics but from some other (deterministic) mechanics. If there were human-like creatures in such a world, would they not have feelings or would "classical" humans be philosophical zombies?
  • Enrique
    842
    Suppose we lived in a world where atomic stability came not from quantum mechanics but from some other (deterministic) mechanics. If there were human-like creatures in such a world, would they not have feelings or would "classical" humans be philosophical zombies?SolarWind

    Quantum mechanics is a more fundamental theory of reality than classical mechanics' absolute determinism, and might explain the root of all feelings, an intrinsic property of nanoscale entanglement and superposition amongst matter, equal in status to size, weight, color, shape and the like. I think quantum mechanics will eventually prove negligibly indeterministic even at the level of single events, but that's just speculation. All humans feel probably because this is an essential feature of matter, but feelings can of course be had in a huge host of ways. I felt like a zombie when I got out of bed this morning, and since I also thought about qualia, I guess I'm a philosophical zombie at least once in awhile lol
  • SolarWind
    204
    I think quantum mechanics will eventually prove negligibly indeterministic even at the level of single events, but that's just speculation.Enrique

    The point is: Is qualia possible in a deterministic world or not?
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment