• wuliheron
    440
    Well yeah good luck with that. Very often when people run out of things to say they speak of love, but they do so vacuously, with love meaning only some vague kind of compassion, with no specific way to implement in practical situations. So it's just like getting each other drunk on cheap wine.Agustino

    Love is synonymous with the truth and not another academic or political platform to be debated. If academics and politicians can't use the word then its because civilization can't because they are always too busy fighting over weapons, money, and resources. Hence, the reason we just elected a bigot, professional wrestling fan, and reality TV star president.
  • Agustino
    11.3k
    Coca Cola is a money making machine and not a product. Already computers have taken over perhaps 30% of the business of Wall Street because they are faster and becoming more complex than even people. Humans are just much too slow for too many of these tasks and systems logic can be self-assembling where you just have to apply the fundamentals and watch what it does.wuliheron
    Ok I know about this too. I know that stock trading is getting handed over to the computers with more and more complex models at predicting market moves. James Simmons, the billionaire and mathematician who runs a hedge fund operates according to such principles and has been very successful himself. But again I don't care about systems logic answering this kind of question. These are questions which have numerical answers, and depend on numbers alone. That is indeed doable. I'm interested about a different kind of question as I said before.

    So yes okay, Coca-Cola is a money making machine. Suppose my intention is to make another money-making machine competing with Coca-Cola in the production and commercialization of canned coke. How does systems logic practically help me in solving such a problem? This problem cannot be answered by vague words, nor by numbers. So how does systems logic actually help?
  • wuliheron
    440
    So yes okay, Coca-Cola is a money making machine. Suppose my intention is to make another money-making machine competing with Coca-Cola in the production and commercialization of canned coke. How does systems logic practically help me in solving such a problem? This problem cannot be answered by vague words, nor by numbers. So how does systems logic actually help?Agustino

    Henry Ford was the first to develop the assembly line and, today, the major industries and governments are all investing countless billions in self-assembling technology. Reel to reel printing and other types of self-assembly including computers and a new self-assembling quantum computer even. Its analog logic which rules reality as we know it and, while we've master digital logic which is easier for error correction, the analog is about to show us the foundations of mathematics. Self-assembly is pattern matching which means its like assembling a giant jig saw puzzle where you have no real choice but to learn as you go and merely by assembling the puzzle new and greater truths are revealed about how to assemble it even better.
  • Agustino
    11.3k
    Henry Ford was the first to develop the assembly line and, today, the major industries and governments are all investing countless billions in self-assembling technology. Reel to reel printing and other types of self-assembly including computers and a new self-assembling quantum computer even. Its analog logic which rules reality as we know it and, while we've master digital logic which is easier for error correction, the analog is about to show us the foundations of mathematics. Self-assembly is pattern matching which means its like assembling a giant jig saw puzzle where your have no real choice but to learn as you go and merely by assembling the puzzle new and greater truths are revealed about how to assemble it even better.wuliheron
    Okay so it seems to be that you propose that a straight answer cannot be given because we simply don't know it and we must advance towards an answer, and we will get it by doing. Just like in chess you cannot say in the beginning how exactly you will overcome an opponent. I agree with that, pretty much. But certainly a first move has to be made right? How does systems logic help us choose that first move, that every journey must begin with?
  • wuliheron
    440
    But certainly a first move has to be made right? How does systems logic help us choose that first move, that every journey must begin with?Agustino

    There are people around the world assembling all the pieces as fast as they can with scientists having long ago divided themselves into four groups that are each searching for specific fractal recursions in nature. Commercial companies as well have joined in the action with Microsoft announcing they are now building a topological quantum computer. If my own theory is right, they will require four distinctive topological computers in order to predict roughly half of just about anything humanly imaginable. AI research and a Theory of Everything are one and the same thing.
  • Agustino
    11.3k
    There are people around the world assembling all the pieces as fast as they can with scientists having long ago divided themselves into four groups that are each searching for specific fractal recursions in nature. Commercial companies as well have joined in the action with Microsoft announcing they are now building a topological quantum computer. If my own theory is right, they will require four distinctive topological computers in order to predict roughly half of just about anything humanly imaginable.wuliheron
    Okay but that's not an answer to the question is it? You haven't explained how it actually happens that a non-numerical answer of this kind could be provided by numerical means.
  • wuliheron
    440
    Okay but that's not an answer to the question is it? You haven't explained how it actually happens that a non-numerical answer of this kind could be provided by numerical means.Agustino

    My own view is we are staring into the abyss and logic actually revolves around what is missing from this picture or, bullshit if you prefer. Hence, our Rainbow poetry and the Tao Te Ching can describe life, the universe, and everything as a systems logic by merely treating every word as a variable with no intrinsic meaning or value. Once you have the complete 430 poems it should be easy enough to translate into the metaphoric emotional-logic of Intuitionistic mathematics. They're about four times as complex as those of classical mathematics. It means logic and jokes, beauty and humor, are two ends of the same spectrum explaining why mathematicians are suddenly showing intense interest in humor and have already created the first quantifiable theory of humor. Its an expression of particle-wave duality.
  • Agustino
    11.3k
    can describe life, the universe, and everything as a systems logic by merely treating every word as a variable with no intrinsic meaning or valuewuliheron
    But that's not really what you mean. You don't really mean that every word has no intrinsic meaning or value. All that you mean is that the intrinsic meaning or value of the word is given always from the outside (in other words is transcendent) - from the context in which it is employed. The whole (or God) gives shape and being to the part.

    They're about four times as complex as those of classical mathematics. It means logic and jokes, beauty and humor, are two ends of the same spectrum explaining why mathematicians are suddenly showing intense interest in humor and have already created the first quantifiable theory of humor.wuliheron
    I take it from this that you believe that everything is, at its foundations, mathematics. Is this true? And if it is, why do you think this is so?
  • wuliheron
    440
    But that's not really what you mean. You don't really mean that every word has no intrinsic meaning or value. All that you mean is that the intrinsic meaning or value of the word is given always from the outside (in other words is transcendent) - from the context in which it is employed. The whole (or God) gives shape and being to the part.

    I take it from this that you believe that everything is, at its foundations, mathematics. Is this true? And if it is, why do you think this is so?
    Agustino

    The first quantifiable theory of humor has already established its validity with empirical evidence by describing what is observable. That's what quantifiable means, either the numbers add up or they don't and they made their discovery studying Dr Seuss. Anything low in entropy can be considered funny, which is polite technobabble for humor revolves around bullshit or what's missing from this picture. Already two computer systems have been built that can produce funnier than average jokes and the academic slapstick is just getting started with the federal government admitting they have classified a few jokes as "Vital to the National Defense" because of the analog systems logic they contain.

    And I do mean every word can be treated as a variable with no intrinsic meaning or value, what others refer to as "Oneness" mysticism can also be interpreted as humor or any number of things because every word is treated as a variable. Some have said the Tao Te Ching is the deepest philosophical well on the planet, but its also the deepest pile of crap imaginable.
  • Agustino
    11.3k
    Yes correct, what we perceive as funny is what is unlikely and unexpected and thus low in entropy. But you're going from an example of something being converted to mathematical language - humor, to saying that everything will be or can be so converted. And I'm asking how do you know that this is the case?
  • wuliheron
    440
    Yes correct, what we perceive as funny is what is unlikely and unexpected and thus low in entropy. But you're going from an example of something being converted to mathematical language - humor, to saying that everything will be or can be so converted. And I'm asking how do you know that this is the case?Agustino

    Its metaphorical or analog logic where what's real and imaginary isn't the issue because its both. They say the first thing you learn about systems logic is that half the planet doesn't know such a thing is possible, which, includes the English speaking half. Donald Hoffman is a Game theorist who discovered, according to all the evidence, if the human mind and brain had ever resembled anything remotely like reality we would have become extinct as a species.
  • Agustino
    11.3k
    Sure but you're not answering in any clear terms. That to me is the equivalent of this being a faith based commitment. You hope reality will turn out to be completely amenable to mathematical description. I'm not so sure.
  • wuliheron
    440
    Sure but you're not answering in any clear terms. That to me is the equivalent of this being a faith based commitment. You hope reality will turn out to be completely amenable to mathematical description. I'm not so sure.Agustino

    Its modern Contextualism or Functionalism which asserts that knowledge without faith is a contradiction in terms. Its the Socratic school of thought that we must all have faith in our own awareness in order to possess any which, of course, includes having faith in our own knowledge. Either you have a personal truth or, all I can say is, good luck with that.
  • Agustino
    11.3k
    Its the Socratic school of thought that we must all have faith in our own awareness in order to possess any which, of course, includes having faith in our own knowledge.wuliheron
    I agree with the Socratic.
  • wuliheron
    440
    Its modern pragmatism as well as ancient tribal wisdom. It supports agnosticism and the idea that, if there is a God, they seem to want to remain anonymous.
  • Wayfarer
    8k
    And you reckon the Chinese Daoist masters would consider such gatherings as part of the Daoist practice? I feel they were more interested in statecraft and the art of governance - similar to Sun Tzu.Agustino

    The role of Taoism in Chinese culture is broadly speaking 'counter-cultural'. Taoists are often depicted as vagabonds or recluses, and some of the best-known Taoist literature, such as the marvellous Chuang Tzu, regularly poked fun at the Confucian scholars for being stuffy and bound by convention. Over the centuries Taoism assumed many forms, and also absorbed a great deal of folk religion, magic and medicine, but the archetypical Taoist sage is definitely a loner, someone on the fringes of society - along the lines of the original sceptics and cynics in ancient Greek culture.
  • Agustino
    11.3k
    Yes and no. Taoism strikes a balance between pragmatism and statesmanship and vagabondism that I haven't seen in any other religion. Remember that the Dao de Jing was widely used during the Warring States period (arguably one of the most chaotic, brutal and ruthless periods in Chinese history) by statesmen and generals in order to organise their armies, plan out their strategies, and annihilate or nullify their opponents. This isn't just some counter-cultural movement, but rather a philosophy that has practical value in the organisation and control of men - ie in order, which is often seen as the opposite of counter culture.
  • wuliheron
    440
    Like Socratic wisdom, Taoism merely made the crossover between ancient tribal wisdom and modern civilization. The interesting part is that what many have dismissed as outdated and merely against progress is now coming under renewed intense scrutiny. Civilization is taking its own long way home, but Childhoods End is upon us once again and, this time, the world will never be the same again.
  • 0 thru 9
    828
    The gentlest thing in the world
    overcomes the hardest thing in the world.
    That which has no substance
    enters where there is no space.
    This shows the value of non-action. Teaching without words,
    performing without actions:
    that is the way of the Way.
    -chapter 43
  • wuliheron
    440
    Yeah, but Lao Tzu wrote it down despite saying that the Tao that can be spoken of is not the eternal Tao and teaching without words is the more profound truth. Using beautiful words is no different than anything else whenever we no longer make distinctions between who we are and what we are doing.
  • 0 thru 9
    828
    If one supposes the possibility of "teaching without words", then that would seem to point to a "learning without words". Can one listen to Silence? (Capitalized for contrast to the usual meaning, ie. the absence of sound). Can one learn from Silence, and if so what can be learned? Is Silence completely empty? Or is it simply out of the range of the range of hearing (or perhaps comprehension) in some way? Teachings such as the Tao te Ching use words, of course. It is in harmony with silence though, and makes the important disclaimer that it is merely a pale reflection of that which cannot be spoken. The author, one could say, seems to have listened to and been transformed by this Silence and encourages us to do likewise.
  • Hanover
    4.8k
    How is any of this philosophy?
  • wuliheron
    440
    If one supposes the possibility of "teaching without words", then that would seem to point to a "learning without words". Can one listen to Silence? (Capitalized for contrast to the usual meaning, ie. the absence of sound). Can one learn from Silence, and if so what can be learned? Is Silence completely empty? Or is it simply out of the range of the range of hearing (or perhaps comprehension) in some way? Teachings such as the Tao te Ching use words, of course. It is in harmony with silence though, and makes the important disclaimer that it is merely a pale reflection of that which cannot be spoken. The author, one could say, seems to have listened to and been transformed by this Silence and encourages us to do likewise.0 thru 9

    How is any of this philosophy?Hanover

    Teaching without words is merely how we express the self-evident truth that the greater context of the truth only asserts itself within the silent void. Either you have personal integrity and you can express poetry in motion or you don't and fall on your butt and you can learn how to do this in any number of disciplines such as martial arts, dancing, or writing poetry as I do. My Rainbow Poetry expresses the silences between the notes and pauses in our more heartfelt conversations because, paradoxically, treating every word as a variable with no intrinsic meaning or value lends them collectively all that much more meaning and value because the greater context of the truth decides the value of everything and the more we surrender to our words the more they can express.

    Beautiful words are honest words which can defy unbalanced gravity itself and change the world as it we know it for the better only because they come from the heart and the spark within which can never die. If you have no personal truth philosophy is just another word spouted by con-artists and wannabe comedians. This is what Socrates taught, that philosophy is about ethics and personal integrity. Humorously, it can also be expressed as the principle of, "As others have taught, so must I, great behinds stink alike anonymously." Often I tell people, "When the student is poorly prepared, the master is rudely awakened" for we are all our own worst student and the master within us is rudely awakened when already believe we know all the answers.
  • Hanover
    4.8k
    I wish I could have back the two minutes of my life that I lost reading that.
  • wuliheron
    440
    I wish I could have back the two minutes of my life that I lost reading that.Hanover

    Many people find the idea of ethics and values altogether worthless in our modern material world.
  • 0 thru 9
    828
    How is any of this philosophy?Hanover

    When starting the thread, it was a coin toss whether to put it in General Philosophy or Philosophy of Religion, if that is what you are referring to. The moderators could move it to the appropriate sub-forum if necessary.
  • Hanover
    4.8k
    Many people find the idea of ethics and values altogether worthless in our modern material world.wuliheron

    Interesting aside.
  • Hanover
    4.8k
    When starting the thread, it was a coin toss whether to put it in General Philosophy or Philosophy of Religion, if that is what you are referring to. The moderators could move it to the appropriate sub-forum if necessary.0 thru 9

    Fair enough. I just wonder if it's either, though. I find this more a theological discussion than a philosophy of religion discussion. Assuming I come into this discussion with the notion that these Eastern belief systems are B.S., it seems I'd have no place in this discussion other than me constantly screaming that I'm a non-believer.

    On the other hand, if you were debating whether the Tao itself made sense and were presenting logical and empirical bases for your position, then it would be a philosophical debate and my screaming that I'm a non-believer would be misplaced.
  • 0 thru 9
    828
    Thanks very much for your reply. No problem whatsoever. Communication will become instantaneous just as soon as everyone is a mind reader! Maybe this could be called the TaoTeChing discussion thread instead. I didn't mean to stifle any opinions that weren't glowingly positive. If a philosophical writing can't take some scrutiny and doubt then it's like a bridge that isn't strong enough to travel over. Though I wouldn't call it strictly theological, due to a lack of a distinct divinity being mentioned. But that is what appeals to me about it. It has the restraint to allow the central mysteries to remain undefined. The circuitous path is taken in describing the way of nature. But since it says that more words count less and those that talk don't know, I'll say no more!
  • 0 thru 9
    828
    There is an overlap and it common ground between the Tao te Ching of Lao-Tzu and The Art of War by Sun-Tzu. Some quotes from the Tao expressed in a military-type metaphor are "the wise general treats victory like a funeral. Because of the loss of life, it is no cause for celebration." and "lean years follow in the wake of a great war. Thorn bushes spring up wherever an army has passed."

    The Art of War is not as familiar to me, but is filled with insights that could be applied to the give and take of daily life:

    “He who advances without seeking fame,
    Who retreats without escaping blame,
    He whose one aim is to protect his people and serve his lord,
    The man is a jewel of the Realm”
    ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

    “If those who are sent to draw water begin by drinking themselves, the army is suffering from thirst. [One may know the condition of a whole army from the behavior of a single man.]”
    ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

    “There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general:
    (1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction;
    (2) cowardice, which leads to capture;
    (3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults;
    (4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame;
    (5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble.”
    ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

    “In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity”
    ― Sun Tzu, A Arte da Guerra
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