• Eric Wintjen
    16
    For the majority of human history, human society existed in one of two states, either in anarchy, where small clans and tribes governed themselves, or under tyranny. Where the monarch or emperor or god-king's word was law. I believe there is a reason for this, and it is not simply because we were primitive. After thinking through these things for as long as I've has political opinions, I've come to a conclusion. Those states, anarchy and tyranny, are the only two states we are really capable of understanding and engaging with on a meaningful level.

    We are still the same primitive apes that formed these societies, and I believe the modern world is proof that we have just gotten ahead of ourselves. We believe that because we have accomplished some interesting things that we have freed ourselves from our own nature. But all of our materialistic and moral advancement has come at a cost. It is something that everyone is aware of but nobody wants to talk about: our mental health. Skyrocketing suicide rates, chronic depression, anxiety, and a nearly universal lack of a sense of purpose.

    Now look at how we are governed. Massive parties, byzantine bureaucratic structures. These are systems so complex that 4 years of specialized higher education is a requirement to even begin to understand how it all operates. So what does the average person do to conceptualize it? We call it a tyrant, either one we like or hate, but a tyrant nonetheless. All these systems do is obfuscate who is to blame for what and who should be held accountable. When was the last time it was certain that a specific person in government had done something wrong and then that person held to account? Then we delude ourselves and say that there is virtue in collectively tossing aside the Sword of Damocles claiming that we are better for not putting the tyrants head on a spike, when in reality if our governments were run by a single person, we would have done just that, and we would have done it long ago. We claim that since we vote for our leaders, we don't need to rise up against them, because they do what we elect them to do... except when they don't. Our government doesn't do only exactly what elected officials run on. Who does those things that we don't vote for? How many degrees of separation are there between our elected officials and those people? What stops elected officials from either backing or doing these things themselves? The threat that we won't vote for them again? Is that punishment enough? Does that actually solve anything?

    We live within systems that we truly do not understand, cause and affect are unknown, who to hold accountable is unknown. We sit around, depressed, anxious, and without purpose, hoping that our vote will somehow solve it all, that this single person will change everything or will at the very least take things a step in what we think is the right direction, but we really have no idea what it is we are trying to do.

    The more complex the system, the more that can go wrong, and the harder it is to understand, let alone fix.

    At least, in anarchy, you know who is in charge of you personally and you can negotiate with them yourself, kill them and take their place, or leave. At least in tyranny you know whose palace to storm and whose head to put on a spike, knowing that whoever comes next will at least be something different.
  • god must be atheist
    5.1k
    All these systems do is obfuscate who is to blame for what and who should be held accountable.Eric Wintjen

    They (beaurocracy) do many other things, but granted, they do obfuscate as well.

    I agree with you, that we live under a tyranny. But the tyrant is the People. (In some countries.)

    THIS is new. To have the tyrant be not one person, but many, and to have the tyrant rule its own self via proxy.

    You're right, I completely agree with you: the system we live in is a tyranny. But I don't agree with your point that complexity makes us bewildered. We fit, each of us, into a cog in the complexity, and raise our families and propagate our DNAs. This is fostered by our system of tyranny, so people are satisfied not because they are blinded by the complexity, (although they definitely are blinded) but because their life goal is free to practice: fill your belly, make children, live well.
  • god must be atheist
    5.1k
    Our government doesn't do only exactly what elected officials run on. Who does those things that we don't vote for?Eric Wintjen

    This is absolutely true. But what you don't mention is that under tyranny by one tyrant or under anarchy, the people's wishes are completely ignored.

    In democracy, at least SOME of the wishes are heard and adhered to. In the other two systems, they don't need to be, at all.

    So this is why Chamberlain said, "Democracy is the worst possible system of government, except for all the others."
  • Judaka
    1.7k

    Anarchy is the absence of structure and tyranny is the most basic structure of government. More advanced forms of government can only be carried out by more advanced cultures. Anarchy is tyranny but there is no government and in a tyranny, how often were they held accountable for anything? Dictators and kings commit evil and nobody can challenge them. Few of the problems you listed in democracy, can be coherently argued to be better or absent in tyrannies or anarchies.

    How can you even talk about storming the palace of the tyrant, how often did that happen historically? People who disagree with democracy are almost as bad as people who disagree with capitalism.

    In the US, Trump is held accountable for bad tweeting and off-hand comments. Meanwhile, Kim Jong-un is worshipped as a God and has effectively brainwashed half the country and the other half are too terrified to say anything. If anyone was going to storm his palace, they'd had decades to try.
  • A Seagull
    615
    So this is why Chamberlain said, "Democracy is the worst possible system of government, except for all the others."god must be atheist

    It was Winston Churchill who said this.
  • god must be atheist
    5.1k

    I stand corrected. Thanks for spotting this error, Seagull.
  • alcontali
    1.3k
    So this is why Chamberlain said, "Democracy is the worst possible system of government, except for all the others."god must be atheist

    I disagree with Churchill.

    Democracy is doing something that even the worst communist dictatorship never did. It has taken control over marriage and divorce and instituted legal rules that make the family and generational reproduction impossible. Therefore, democracy is happily busy destroying itself.

    There is simply no long-term survival possible without overthrowing the democratic regime. Unfortunately, this cannot be achieved by debating, negotiating, voting, or discussing. It has to be done through the force of arms. In other words, democracy will inevitably end in a violent blood bath.
  • Brett
    3k


    Therefore, democracy is happily busy destroying itself.alcontali

    I don’t believe this for a minute. I do see democracy struggling to deal with modern issues. But democracy is the only system in which better systems can evolve from. Whatever it’s failings it’s a dynamic system capable of absorbing radical ideas and converting them into functional models of government. It’s an organic system that functions on “ debating, negotiating, voting, or discussing”, and reflects exactly how people behave in communities.

    Edit:
    There is simply no long-term survival possible without overthrowing the democratic regime.alcontali

    What’s your evidence for this idea?
  • god must be atheist
    5.1k
    It has taken control over marriage and divorce and instituted legal rules that make the family and generational reproduction impossible.alcontali

    If that is true, that's a great invention to curb human population explosion.

    I suggest we introduce democracy in all countries in the world, and then when we are down to a critical mass of minimum number to survive, we can reestablish communism.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    I’m disappointed that nobody in this thread seems to know what anarchy actually is.

    It’s not disorder or chaos or lawlessness. It is radically democratic, egalitarian, decentralized governance. It’s not the absence if governance, but the absence of a state, and the perfection of governance into a stateless form.
  • Brett
    3k

    I’m disappointed that nobody in this thread seems to know what anarchy actually is.Pfhorrest

    At least, in anarchy, you know who is in charge of you personally and you can negotiate with them yourself, kill them and take their place, or leave. At least in tyranny you know whose palace to storm and whose head to put on a spike, knowing that whoever comes next will at least be something different.Eric Wintjen

    It’s not so much an ignorance of anarchy as a refusal to accept only one of the two, and the idea that there is no long term survival without overthrowing democracy. There are anarchic communities in the world, but they also survive within a democratic world. Tyranny would not allow their existence.
  • god must be atheist
    5.1k
    Anarchy means, literally, "no rule". It is not democratic, but it is egalitarian.

    Nobody rules over anyone else.

    ---------------------

    Monarchy - mono archy, or one rules over all.

    Oligarchy - Oligs rule (I don't know what an olig is.)

    Plutarchy - rule by many (I think... now I wish I never skipped those Ancient Greek Language classes)

    Patriarchy - rule by a male originator of the klan

    Matriarchy - rule by a female originator of the Klan

    Anarchy - rule by nobody (an- is a prefix that negates a noun's meaning.)
  • alcontali
    1.3k
    I suggest we introduce democracy in all countries in the worldgod must be atheist

    Well, it doesn't seem to work in even microscopically tiny Afghanistan, while you can still see the trillions of dollars sitting in the ever growing debt burden. Since the West has enthusiastically applied antinatalism to itself, it is running out of time.

    Natalists do not care about dead bodies on their side, because they'll just replace them in the next generation. For antinatalists, however, every dead body irrevocably reduces their head count. Antinatalism does not work because it is just too easy to call their bluff.
  • god must be atheist
    5.1k
    Alcontali, the post you posted makes no sense to me. I am not putting you down; maybe your intellect is much higher than mine, and that's why. But your claims to me make no sense,and the connections and conclusions drawn make no sense.

    Maybe my ineptitude, not yours. Or maybe it's the other way around? I am no judge of that. (But I am a judge of that for the sake of forming my own opinion.)
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    Anarchy means “no rulers”, not “no rules”. No rules would be anomie.
  • god must be atheist
    5.1k
    You and I are saying the same thing, I don't know why you spake in a tone as if to correct me. I said
    Anarchy - rule by nobodygod must be atheist

    Rule by nobody is the same as no ruler. I don't think I said anywhere anarchy = "no rule"
  • iolo
    226
    Freud's nephew moved to America and began the total manipulation of the mugs, which grew and grew to near-perfection long since.. Now the internet sees to it that none of them ever hear or see anything they don't already believe as a result of that manipulation.. How can you have democracy under such conditions?
  • Mac
    59
    I don't see much "proof" here at all. Just how you feel about the way things are and have been.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    The very first line of the post I was responding to was:

    Anarchy means, literally, "no rule".god must be atheist
  • Mac
    59
    Lots, of conclusions here, and sadly no proof.
  • god must be atheist
    5.1k
    You're right. I was wrong. I said then after that in at least two places, the correct version, but that does not vindicate me for my error.

    Well done.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    To be fair I didn’t notice that you got it right after you got it wrong, so I’m glad it was just a momentary mistake and not a fundamental misunderstanding.
  • BitconnectCarlos
    1.7k


    I’m disappointed that nobody in this thread seems to know what anarchy actually is.

    It’s not disorder or chaos or lawlessness. It is radically democratic, egalitarian, decentralized governance. It’s not the absence if governance, but the absence of a state, and the perfection of governance into a stateless form.

    I'm actually interested in this. A couple questions though:

    1. How would legislation work? Would everyone vote on every proposed law? Would it be majority rules?

    2. How would law enforcement work? Would there be various bands of police in competition with each other?

    There are things in anarchy which seem appealing to me and I'm not opposed to it on any base philosophical level I would just like a little more detail. I think we both agree that states can be extremely murderous.... Even if an anarchic society is a fundamentally just and fair one I question if it can conduct military affairs up to par with states.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    There are a lot of different proposals for how an anarchic society could be structured. You can read my ideas on that in my essay On Politics, Governance, and the Institutes of Justice.
  • bert1
    1.8k
    Monarchy - mono archy, or one rules over all.

    Oligarchy - Oligs rule (I don't know what an olig is.)

    Plutarchy - rule by many (I think... now I wish I never skipped those Ancient Greek Language classes)

    Patriarchy - rule by a male originator of the klan

    Matriarchy - rule by a female originator of the Klan

    Anarchy - rule by nobody (an- is a prefix that negates a noun's meaning.)
    god must be atheist

    It would have been so easy to look these up before posting.
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