• Enrique
    842
    Those of you who are into the subject of history, tell me if this seems like an accurate generalized accounting for the origins of civilized social organization. What, if anything, does this basic assessment lack, spirituality's role, or something else maybe?

    Local leadership traditions - patriarchs, chiefs, shamans and the like - gave way to acquisitive governments intended to facilitate wars and control of previously foreign territory in the most fertile and crowded regions of the world, such as ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, India, the Far East, Minoan Crete, Olmec Mexico and Chavin Peru. As infrastructure advanced in many locations, with roads, the wheel, and domestication of animals for purposes of transport, it became possible to occupy rival lands, export political institutions to serve one’s own interests, and maintain a superiority in wealth by dictating the parameters of trade.

    Financial inequality imposed by imperial governing concentrated riches in the hands of what at first were ethnicity-based ruling castes, the most obvious example being Mesopotamia, as Sumerians, Akkadians, Babylonians, Hittites and Assyrians rose to relative supremacy at various times by way of conquest, and as these tribes formerly separated by geographic distance merged into a more homogenously ethnic culture, racial divides gave way to enduring class distinctions based upon prestige, political power and economic status. Antiquity's many cultures took their turn invading and conquering, migrated on large scales in peacetime, and ultimately blended, but as economies and the technology underpinning them diversified, populations differentiated into more complex forms of social organization based around socioeconomic stratification - classes - and intricate legal criteria defining status in a plethora of social contexts. Civilized living required increasingly specialized skills, dividing sub-cultures internally because of a multiplying of professions and additional roles, especially in the mid to lower labor demographics, a disunity that allowed upper-class demographics, which had originated as conquering plunderers, to opportunistically refashion their armed pursuits into institutional enforcement of economic and political authority.
  • Enrique
    842
    Don't kiss me all at once!
  • ovdtogt
    667
    origins of civilized social organizationEnrique

    That would be language.
  • Enrique
    842


    You mean written language? That's the historical record, a corollary of civilization but not the cause. Source material for the scientific analysis of civilized culture perhaps, basis for our modern knowledge.
  • ovdtogt
    667
    ohn 1:1 is the first verse in the opening chapter of the Gospel of John. In the Douay–Rheims, King James, New International, and other versions of the Bible, the verse reads:In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    It all starts with the spoken word. And yes writing propels it on.
  • Enrique
    842


    Modern language emerged at least two hundred thousand years ago, at the origin of our species. Hunter-gatherer cultures speak with roughly equivalent complexity to civilized cultures. Maybe language platformed the evolution of civilization, one of its necessary preconditions, but language alone does not inevitably lead to institutions.
  • ovdtogt
    667
    but language alone does not inevitably lead to institutions.Enrique

    It is a sine qua non. No civilization without language.

    Maybe language platformed the evolution of civilization,Enrique

    It lies at the very birth of civilization. Until now, the earliest tool-maker was thought to be Homo habilis. -
    I don't think we even as tool makers would have advanced very far without some rudimentary ability for language.
  • Enrique
    842


    My amateur opinion is that the thought structures enabling tool use probably support the form of language to some degree as well, but many brain structures involved in producing modern language evolved much later than Homo habilis and are more responsible for aesthetic creation of certain varieties of complex memes than the possibility of civilized technical practices, though technological facility was simultaneously advancing mostly independent of spoken communication. Prehistoric language is much more grammatically sophisticated than the object-oriented languages of contemporary societies, so I think the selection pressure was initially for speech to serve as a kind of pure artistry, similar to our musical or poetic sensibilities. Deeply ingrained in civilized culture as an aspect of human nature, but not a motivational vector leading inevitably to institution-building with its technological foundations. I think maybe population dynamics are what led to large-scale civilization, not linguistic communicativeness. And the memeticizing of quantification in highly innovative ways, a byproduct of inchoate civilization.
  • ovdtogt
    667
    o I think the selection pressure was initially for speech to serve as a kind of pure artistry, similar to our musical or poetic sensibilities.Enrique

    I don't think I can agree with you there. Even today's monkeys in the wild use a language for conveying information (signal danger. I think research has shown they are even able to convey different types of threats) and not to 'serve as a kind of pure artistry',

    https://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/clever-monkeys-monkeys-and-language/3948/

    "Recent studies are finding that the language abilities of some monkeys are more sophisticated than previously believed. Much more sophisticated.

    Monkeys live together in social groups. All members contribute by helping to defend food sources, raise young, and watch for predators. But it is impossible to live in a social group without some form of communication. Group members need ways to influence and inform each other. This is what drives language. "
  • Janus
    15.4k
    Symbolic, as distinct from merely signaling, language is a form of mental grasping.
    The opposable thumb (physical grasping) and symbolic language together enable writing. Written language enables extended histories which pave the way for the development of institutions.

    Agriculture, enabled by tool use, is also enabled by the opposable thumb that allows effective grasping of tools and implements. Agriculture develops forward thinking, planning for the future, and brings about the idea of ownership of the fruits of labour and eventually private property. Property creates the need for institutions, the records of which may be extrapolated to social histories.
  • ovdtogt
    667
    Deeply ingrained in civilized culture as an aspect of human nature, but not a motivational vector leading inevitably to institution-building with its technological foundations.Enrique

    You have to understand that the Homo Sapiens was 200.000 years ago fully equipped to commence it's march towards modern civilization. All the biological traits and a fully functioning language had to be present. From then on it was a case of interplay between culture and environment. Our culture shaping our environment and the environment shaping our culture. As we passed various 'tipping points' such as agriculture and then urban living....Like a spiral staircase it winds it's way up the tower of Babel.
  • Enrique
    842


    I'll first say that I agree the evolution of culture was mostly mimetic rather than biological, but mimetic selection exacts changes in the structure of the brain that have had very subtle effects on the innate features of human mental traits in thousands of separate ways throughout the world for tens of thousands of years. This dynamic is currently too complex to be conceptually linked with any specific factor, but human social behavior can affect biology.

    Regarding language specifically, you can influence someone without informing them, and this is what I think drove the greater development of distinctly human language as compared to the rest of the anthropoids. I mean you really think we speak for the sake of telling the truth? Language, while not completely disjuncted from practical causality in its meanings, has had an extraordinary amount of aesthetic and status appeal during most of human history and prehistory, with cultural behavior selecting for maximized linguistic ability, and enhanced linguistic ability molding culture into a form that socially selected for even further development, a primarily mimetic evolutionary process with a modicum of biological change thrown in as mostly greater brain plasticity for assimilating and mastering the forms of speech to carry out extremely long and fluent sequences of phonemes, and explicit grammar working its way into the mix somehow. I think human language probably differs from the rest of anthropoid language more than the core thought processes of anthropoid species differ, though humans have a much superior ability to generalize.

    Linguistic evolution's non-rational element explains why songbirds such as canaries also have complex grammar and a large repertoire of sounds without even close to the same level of flexible intelligence as anthropoids.



    Language as symbolic grasping? You think linguistic meaning is massive neuronal synesthesia with grasping functions? Wild! lol
  • Janus
    15.4k
    Language as symbolic grasping? You think linguistic meaning is massive neuronal synesthesia with grasping functions? Wild! lolEnrique

    No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that mental grasping, which is enabled by symbolic abstraction, is understood in a way analogous to physical grasping. This is reflected in linguistic expressions of our metaphorical understanding of understanding.
  • frank
    14.5k
    What, if anything, does this basic assessment lack, spirituality's role, or something else maybe?Enrique

    Impact of the advent of agriculture. Agriculture results in grain surpluses that could be stored. People who become dependent on stored grain can't be nomadic because the stores are too big to tote around, plus agriculture requires spending a lot of time in the same place. Instead of home being wherever we happen to camp for the night, home is a certain place. Maps appear. The delayed gratification of agriculture nurtures abstraction.

    Bronze age cultures were pretty close to socialism. The grain and other crops were brought into the palace where it would be distributed to the population.

    The king's daughter is usually the high priestess of the fertility cult. Storing food leads to population increases...cities are born, usually near large rivers.
  • ovdtogt
    667
    I'll first say that I agree the evolution of culture was mostly mimetic rather than biological,Enrique

    The evolution of culture had been made possible by the use of language. Complex language is what sets us apart from other animals and has allowed us to build a sophisticated culture. I believe language was even the most formative force behind the evolution of our body from Australopithecus into Homo Habilis. If even chimps display a relatively sophisticated use of language, it must be the case that Australopithecus had an even greater command over language. Language must have been instrumental in our evolutionary and later cultural development.
  • Enrique
    842


    I didn't realize the arrangements were so collectivist. Was that crop management function along with various spiritual associations the predominant mechanism for rulers' sustained security, as opposed to force? I imagine a lot of variation on that basic theme existed. When did centralized agriculture generally start to break down in antiquity, and was it a result of imperial invasions and conquests followed by slave labor and enforced caste systems?
  • frank
    14.5k
    Was that crop management function along with various spiritual associations the predominant mechanism for rulers' sustained security, as opposed to force?Enrique

    I don't know. My guess is that since city people were dependent on the grain stores, they had a reason to make the city work.

    There's a theory that the reason we became different from other hominins is that we developed a large enough population to allow for the preservation of knowledge and skills. The theory is that when hominins are scattered around the world in small groups, if some innovation comes into existence, it's in danger of disappearing if the group that developed it is beset by starvation or some other kind of crisis.

    With larger populations and stable population centers, a small band can move out and discover new territory, but if they fall on hard times and lose skills, they can communicate back with the central "skills bank" and start over. This way knowledge can be preserved and built upon over time.

    The story of Noah and the ark has its origin in the Bronze Age. Some historians think the message of the story may have to do with the preservation of knowledge across the span of a natural disaster.

    When did centralized agriculture generally start to break down in antiquity, and was it a result of imperial invasions and conquests followed by slave labor and enforced caste systems?Enrique

    The Bronze Age collapsed in the 1170's BCE. Eric Cline says it was the result of a long string of bad luck involving invasions of nomadic people, earthquakes, and civil unrest. The civil unrest part may be what you're talking about. There's another author somebody told me to read: Feinstein. I haven't gotten to it though.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    You know in the original Greek “the Word” is “logos”, which does literally mean “word” but in the context of the time meant more like “logic”, a cosmic ordering principle of rationally. (Strictly speaking “logic” was the study of the logos).
  • I like sushi
    4.3k
    Assuming I understand what you mean by ‘civilization’ it would be sedentary living that instigated civilization - sedentary living would’ve also created more opportunity for specialisation alongside a need to ‘protect’ possessions within ‘owned’ territory. In hunter gatherer society warring undoubtedly took place too, but generally avoiding direct violent conflict would’ve be much easier as no serous time would’ve been invested in any particular ‘piece’ of land - little to no horticulture or construction of abodes in any permanent way.

    Sedentary living is commonly viewed in anthropology as the beginning of ‘inequality’ due to ‘possession of land’. There is much more to consider of course so I guess you’re looking into alternative contributors to ‘civilization’ and ‘inequality’ by way of possessed ‘goods’/‘land’.
  • ovdtogt
    667
    Logos means word. I did not know that. Sharing information is very important to the survival of many species. Words are the most effective means of sharing information. Words are culture.
  • Enrique
    842


    Complex language is what sets us apart from other animals...Language must have been instrumental in our evolutionary and later cultural development.

    Language probably hasn't greatly changed the core of the hominin technology-producing thought process, very much based on reasoning and causal recognitions of a non-verbal variety. I think the essentials of Kantian reason would apply similarly to earlier hominins, maybe even Austrolepithecus also. A modern human ferally raised by Homo habilis wouldn't be inevitably prone to display massively divergent cognition, single-handedly leading hominins in a technological revolution to the next stage of evolution for instance lol Its a hundred thousand year history of cumulative education as a culture of behavioral demonstration and rehearsal that has made our thinking vastly more developed technically, with language being a relatively minor component of this process until the historical period, and still more of an instrument than the decisive factor.

    My Freudian-inspired theory is that what complex language exclusively contributed to evolution was giving humans cultural permission to think and feel in novel ways, a normative tolerance for sharing obscure experiences mimetically and conceptually, with our own self as well, rather than the mere biological norms rooted in reproduction, survival, and related status, which non-human anthropoids are much more constrained by.

    Language does not guarantee greater intelligence in all possible ways, which makes simple intuitive sense if you really give it some thought. Orangutans can even best humans at a touch screen game that is based on the rudiments of our own visual recognition ability. Human cognition isn't universally superior, but the human psyche with its motivational properties is much more intricate than probably any species because, for hundreds of thousands of years, language has given it a medium to assert itself without getting brute negative feedback. This makes humans extremely diverse, interesting, difficult, and somewhat crazy.

    That's my opinion, it could be inaccurate.
  • Athena
    2.9k
    I think you have described the evolution of patriarchies, but I think before patriarchal civilizations there were matriarchal civilizations. Patriarchies do seem to advance technology much more than matriarchies, so it is unlikely we would have the civilizations we have today without patriarchies.

    ↪Pfhorrest
    Logos means word. I did not know that. Sharing information is very important to the survival of many species. Words are the most effective means of sharing information. Words are culture.
    ovdtogt

    Not all cultures survive. Cultures can self destruct, or at least loose the competition for survival.
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