I don't think there's a responsible, compassionate case to be made that we should try not to answer these very basic questions before proceeding with treatment that is possibly more dangerous than non-medical intervention. — Artemis
Can you explain what case you are making then? Cause imho your last post sounded like you did not have answers to those questions but would still endorse selectively allowing underage persons to take on the risk. — Artemis
I think doctors offering transitions to underage persons are probably (in good faith) trying too quick to accommodate transpeople's desires. Which is understandable, but it might not actually be in the best interest of transpeople until we can solve a whole list of medical and metaphysical concerns first. — Artemis
let us first decide if they actually exist! — fdrake
condition; and those are influenced by but are not reducible to questions of what is a trans person. The — fdrake
Isn't that what "inappropriate" means? Nonconforming?Why is it inappropriate for one child to wear clothes that it's appropriate for a child with different genitals to wear?
The issue isn't that we should accommodate inappropriate behaviour; the issue is that the behaviour isn't inappropriate at all. Nonconforming, perhaps, but not inappropriate. — Michael
Actually, that's a really important, fundamental question before medicine should be practiced. — Artemis
It's not like the metaphysical questions' a priori nature dictates treatment strategy or social experience; though the metaphysics that accompanies peoples' perceptions of trans (including self perception) is important. — fdrake
For most people there isnt one. The difference is as imaginary as the sex transgenders believe they are. For the transgenders there isn't a difference which is why they attempt to change their sex.Especially when you have people like ↪Harry Hindu here who still believe there's no distinction between birth sex and gender, trans people be damned. — fdrake
Of course details like "what exactly is transgenderism" determine treatment. It's like the difference between how you'd treat someone with paranoia versus a victim of stalking. Or how you'd treat an obese person trying to lose weight versus an anorexic one. Or treating an ulcer versus Crohn's disease. All these things share symptoms, but are hugely different cases and therefore need different treatments. — Artemis
Transgender (sometimes shortened to “trans”) is an umbrella term used to describe a wide range of identities whose appearance and characteristics are perceived as gender atypical —including transsexual people, cross-dressers (sometimes referred to as “transvestites”), and people who identify as third gender. Transwomen identify as women but were classified as males when they were born, transmen identify as men but were classified female when they were born, while other trans people don’t identify with the gender-binary at all. Some transgender people seek surgery or take hormones to bring their body into alignment with their gender identity; others do not. — UN
Gender identity reflects a deeply felt and experienced sense of one’s own gender. Everyone has a gender identity, which is part of their overall identity. A person’s gender identity is typically aligned with the sex assigned to them at birth. Transgender (sometimes shortened to “trans”) is an umbrella term used to describe people with a wide range of identities – including transsexual people, cross-dressers (sometimes referred to as “transvestites”), people who identify as third gender, and others whose appearance and characteristics are seen as gender atypical and whose sense of their own gender is different to the sex that they were assigned at birth. Trans women identify as women but were classified as males when they were born. Trans men identify as men but were classified female when they were born. Cisgender is a term used to describe people whose sense of their own gender is aligned with the sex that they were assigned at birth. Gender identity is distinct from sexual orientation and sex characteristics. — UN
Gender expression is the way in which we express our gender through actions and appearance. Gender expression can be any combination of masculine, feminine and androgynous. For a lot of people, their gender expression goes along with the ideas that our societies deem to be appropriate for their gender. For other people it does not. People whose gender expression does not fit into society’s norms and expectations, such as men perceived as ‘feminine’ and women perceived as ‘masculine’ often face harsh sanctions, including physical, sexual and psychological violence and bullying. A person’s gender expression is not always linked to the person’s biological sex, gender identity or sexual orientation. — UN
What I will say is that I'm usually extremely suspicious that non-acceptance of something resembling this account in its major respects is rooted in a desire for metaphysical accuracy rather than ignorance or prejudice. — fdrake
Sure you do. You are skeptical of so many claims on this forum, yet you aren't skeptical of someone's claim that they are a woman when they were born a man. This is a case of one's skepticism being applied inconsistently, and the reason is because it is a political/religious issue for you, not a scientific one.I guess what I'm saying is we don't need metaphysical speculation for basic characterisation any more. — fdrake
Ok, so here "gender" is defined as an identity that is gender atypical. Did you read that over? Gender is an identity that is gender atypical. Sounds like a contradiction to me. How can gender be something that is atypical of gender? Politics.Transgender (sometimes shortened to “trans”) is an umbrella term used to describe a wide range of identities whose appearance and characteristics are perceived as gender atypical — UN
Here's a completely different definition - one where you just reiterated what I already did - that if gender is a social phenomenon, then gender is defined collectively, not by an individual, which contradicts the idea that gender is an individual identity that a person feels like and can decide for themselves.Gender is a social phenomenon whose archetypes are correlated with the sex of bodies — fdrake
I don't think it makes any sense to claim that a person looking for metaphysical accuracy is being prejudiced. Some might be, as you suggest, using it as a cover for their prejudice, but you cannot assume that a) all such questions are covers, and b) all true supporters won't question the metaphysics. — Artemis
So the definition you present here basically comes down to the latter of my two suggestions earlier: gender is self-id and a social role. In which case, part of the reason trans-people would so desperately want to transition early would be to "pass" more easily and not be the subject of harrassment. — Artemis
You need to define gender in order to define transgenders and where they are. Is gender a feeling or is it a social construction?Start thinking in terms where trans people actually exist and I'll respond in more detail. — fdrake
Trans people only seem to exist in western countries where a small fraction of parents raise their child as the opposite sex rather than in a gender-neutral environment — Harry Hindu
You need to define gender in order to define transgenders and where they are. Is gender a feeling or is it a social construction? — Harry Hindu
Gender refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men – such as norms, roles and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can be changed. While most people are born either male or female, they are taught appropriate norms and behaviours – including how they should interact with others of the same or opposite sex within households, communities and work places. When individuals or groups do not “fit” established gender norms they often face stigma, discriminatory practices or social exclusion – all of which adversely affect health. It is important to be sensitive to different identities that do not necessarily fit into binary male or female sex categories.
noun
noun: gender; plural noun: genders
1.
either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.
members of a particular gender considered as a group.
the fact or condition of belonging to or identifying with a particular gender.
the perception or recognition of one's characteristics as a particular individual, especially in relation to social context.
Hope that helps. — fdrake
Exactly. There have to be these binary archetypes existent in a cultures for there to someone who might want to play the opposite archetype. Eliminate the archetypes and you end up with a gender neutral society and you eliminate transgenderism at the same time. Like I said, transgenders aren't being gender neutral. They are enforcing the binary gender system by claiming to be the opposite sex when performing the acts that some society expects of that sex. In a gender neutral society there would be no acts that make one a man or a woman other than the biological ones that have to do with procreation.The name 'transgender' might be new, but people who don't fit snugly in male and female archetypes for their culture and time period are not. — fdrake
Define define. Define need. Define feeling. Define social construction. Only then will I be able to understand what you write, and I am responding in earnest. If this request seems ridiculous, wonder why such incredulity does not apply to yours. If you seriously don't know what gender is, here is the WHO's definition of it as it relates to social constructions. — fdrake
And self-identity because, yeah... apparently necessary too:
the perception or recognition of one's characteristics as a particular individual, especially in relation to social context. — fdrake
It looks like someone else gets it.One cannot seem to self-identify by the first criteria as a member of some category in the second definition because the second definition makes it clear such membership criteria are taught and imposed by culture, not determined freely by individuals.
Isn't this the nub of the feminist concern about transgender issues, that society's imposed criteria for 'womanhood' become some fixed biological trait that people are born with, identifiable by the self, not imposed by the culture? — Isaac
"Man" and "woman" are terms used to designate not just sex, but species. One's species is probably the most important distinction these terms make. Just as "buck" and "doe" are terms used to refer to male and female deer, we have terms to refer to male and female humans. These aren't social constructions.Male: an adult human male
Woman: an adult human female
Seems to me that this is saying that women and men are physical, biological entities that have these ideas imposed on them by culture. Culture has a way of imposing unnatural rules on us - of treating us unequally and differently. It seems to me that changing ones gender entails changing the society you live in, not by changing your appearance.Gender refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men – such as norms, roles and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can be changed.
If gender is imposed on an individual, then how can an individual choose their own gender? — Harry Hindu
part of a family" entails a physical, biological relationship with others — Harry Hindu
One cannot seem to self-identify by the first criteria as a member of some category in the second definition because the second definition makes it clear such membership criteria are taught and imposed by culture, not determined freely by individuals. — Isaac
This isn't a correction because you didn't read 's question, which asks how can one be part of a family one is born into. I didn't understand the question as one is born from a mother and father's genetic material, unless drakes is using an alternate form of "family". If he meant society or culture, he could of just used those terms, but he's being vague and avoiding me now.Correction: entails a biological and/or social bond. People are generally not biologically related to their spouses, in-laws count as families, as do adopted relations. On the flip side, we can and do disown people biologically related to us based on their treatment of us. — Artemis
Natural selection. The term is called "sexual dimorphism".Where do you think this dichotomy comes from? Between 'taught and imposed by culture' and 'determined freely by individuals'? — fdrake
This isn't a correction because you didn't read ↪fdrake's question, which asks how can one be part of a family one is born into. — Harry Hindu
Where do you think this dichotomy comes from? Between 'taught and imposed by culture' and 'determined freely by individuals'? — fdrake
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