• Amity
    697
    The attack at the International Airport was way worse than the attack on the legislative council building since the former one involved attacking innocent mainland tourists. They even attacked a police officer till he was knocked down and forced to draw a gun to back off the crowd. Such acts will work in favour of CCP and give them reasons to send in army for maintaining " public order "Wittgenstein

    About this attack: I watched a 13min video on Channel 4 news last night - we were pre-warned about the violence.
    https://www.channel4.com/news/hong-kong-violent-clashes-paralyse-airport-for-second-day

    Report by Jonathan Miller

    Hong Kong airport is once again paralysed by protesters who want to see their freedoms protected. Freedoms that they were promised over 20 years ago, when the UK handed Hong Kong back to China.

    But once again, what began as a peaceful demonstration has ended in chaotic violence.

    Will China step in? US President Donald Trump has just announced on social media that his own intelligence services have told him that the Chinese government is moving troops to the border.
    — Jonathan Miller Ch4 news
  • Wittgenstein
    190

    Since HK was ruled by the British for over 150 years, they have left behind their legacy and cultural imprints on the minds of hk people. This isn't the primary cause however.
    It goes much deeper.There were around 2.5 to 3 million people in HK in the 1960s but the culture revolution caused a lot of chinese to escape to HK, which was a British colony then. The immigrants had inquired a hatred towards the communist China even though the British treated them as second class citizens.This feeling was transmitted from one generation to another and the sudden economic development of HK compared to mainland in the 1980s to 1990s further strengthened their conviction that China is a terrible place.

    Ethnically, 92 percent of hkers are han chinese but after a long time, cognitive dissonance will cause people to confuse the politics of mailand with mainlanders.Most of the youngsters were toddlers when the handover took place and they have difficulty identifying with a Chinese identity. It is partly due to the fault of the education system too. Chinese history is not taught as a compulsory subject in Hk and most of the hkers are not connected with it. On the other hand, they can easily identify with western cultures, particularly the younger generation.

    China in the present day is a capitalist dictatorship and they haven't improved much to win the hearts of hker, recently the "education" camps set in Xinjiang province reflect poorly on China's regard for human rights.
  • Amity
    697

    Thank you so much for that explanation and insight into the cultural and historical background.
    I understand better what you meant by accepting a Chinese identity.
    The new generation, in particular, are unlikely to surrender their freedoms without a fight.
    And they have developed their own multi-varied identities.
    I think that is right.
  • Wittgenstein
    190

    What do you think of this proposal ?

    The UK should give Hong Kong citizens full UK nationality as a means of reassurance amid the current standoff with Beijing, the chair of the influential Commons foreign affairs committee has argued.

    Tom Tugendhat said this should have happened to people in the formerly British-ruled territory in 1997, when it was handed back to Chinese control, and that doing so now would reassure Hong Kong’s people that they were supported by the UK.

    It can solve the problem, as most of the protestors who are young and concerned with their futures. They fear living in an orwellian state.They were waving British colonial flags and even the US flags recently during the protests.This shows that they are willing to move to democratic countries and want to be live under their rules.I don't think it will happen as the current government in the UK is anti immigration and offering British passport to 7 million hker may be opposed on many other grounds.
  • Amity
    697
    I don't think it will happen as the current government in the UK is anti immigration and offering British passport to 7 million hker may be opposed on many other grounds.Wittgenstein

    I think you have an excellent grasp of the current situation.
    It will not happen. Too much too late.
  • Wittgenstein
    190

    I hope that l am proven wrong. The more one thinks about the current situation in hk, the more depressing it gets.
  • Amity
    697

    Yes. I think many will be in a state of depression, if not worse.
    What kind of philosophical view would see you through ?
    West ? East ? Ancient or modern ?
  • Evil
    152
    China in the present day is a capitalist dictatorship and they haven't improved much to win the hearts of hker, recently the "education" camps set in Xinjiang province reflect poorly on China's regard for human rightsWittgenstein

    Also the social credit system: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System
  • frank
    3.1k
    Though support might be scattered globally, I can tell you that these young people in Hong Kong are being watched by the young people around me here and not just in a supportive role of "their" desire for freedom, though that is where my energies lay but rather a possible playbook for their own future.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    Hope springs eternal.
  • StreetlightX
    4.1k
    This is one of the few clear instances where a politics of 'identity' is clearly not in any way at stake: there is no question here of 'identifying' with the mainland or 'identifying' with some ephemeral spirit of Hong Kong. The stakes here are differential and clear: political and juridical autonomy from the state apparatus of the PRC. 'Identity' is secondary, derivative, and mystifying. Analysing the situation in those terms is to lose sight of it entirely. China, of course, would like to frame it in those terms, precisely because it allows it not to talk of the real stakes involved - much better to appeal to some mythical sense of the 'Chinese identity' which HK is supposed to partake in.

    A nice lesson in the uselessness - or even harmfulness - of identity politics.
  • hairy belly
    39


    The more one thinks about the current situation in HK, the more one realizes that there's nothing really new here.

    The stakes here are differentialStreetlightX

    Like "Oh, we don't wanna be like you, chinese worker, student, businessman. Our fight is not your fight and your fight is not our fight"? This kind of differential?
  • Evil
    152
    I agree with you.

    @Wittgenstein is defending the Chinese government's actions in an underhanded way.
  • Wittgenstein
    190

    Identity politics isn't the main reason behind the protests but it is hidden deep within the movement.I am very pessimistic with regards to the success of this movement. It is is absurd to suggest that a bunch of teenagers are going to persuade the powerful CCP party leaders to change their minds.
    I doubt the sincerity of most western leaders willingness to solve HK's problem. Words of support don't mean anything unless there is some action.
  • hairy belly
    39
    it is hidden deep within the movementWittgenstein

    It's not hidden, it sets the tone. The only way it is hidden is by being hidden in plain sight. And it's hidden in plain sight precisely because it's the framework. Take as an example the user above who chastised identity politics and then wrote "The stakes here are differential and clear: political and juridical autonomy from the state apparatus of the PRC". As if that's any different from what localists say.

    Also, it's not "a bunch of teenagers". The demonstrations are quite massive and there was a big general strike (at last). It's not a cohesive movement either, but the tone is set by localists and deluded liberals. Which is also the position promoted by USA and Co. The CCP couldn't be more satisfied with that. Also, it couldn't care less if Hong Kong were to turn into a full-blown pseudo-democratic liberal representative system. The dynamics between the elites and the working people would remain pretty much the same in HK. The reason the CCP does not want that is because it would disturb the dynamics between itself and the mass of the working people in the mainland. Which apparently should be the aim and the framework of the movement. But it's not. And most probably it won't be in the foreseeable future. So, even in case that protests escalate, the movement will just be crashed in a few days, some people will die and all will return to normal until next time.
  • frank
    3.1k
    Why does the Chinese govt put out false propaganda?
  • Wittgenstein
    190

    The movement now is directionless and it is more about causing riots, l don't see how any western country would defend public vandalism and use of arson
  • StreetlightX
    4.1k
    I hope they riot until Carrie Lam's head is on a stick.

    Or more probably, until she flees to the mainland licking the boots of her autocratic overlords.
  • Wittgenstein
    190

    If China brings on it's military over to HK, games over.
    The hk people are helpless and there is no way the Carrie Lam will compromise as she is a puppet of the CCP.
  • Amity
    697
    The movement now is directionless and it is more about causing riots,Wittgenstein

    It maybe 'directionless' in that nobody knows where it is leading. From what I've read it isn't 'more about causing riots'. And indeed it has proven inspirational to other protest movements. There is a recognition that they are probably fighting a losing battle but still they carry on. Why ?
    Journalists provide some insight:

    When I ask protesters why they are still coming to the streets, some say they don’t want to see Hong Kong turned into another Chinese city. They cite the detention of Uighur Muslims in Xinjiang, activists imprisoned for years on trumped up charges, or the plan for a nationwide “social credit system”, which they see as the culmination of a digital police state. Because I’ve spent the last year reporting on many of these issues, this answer often makes the deepest impression on me...


    ...Unlike five years ago, this is a leaderless movement. What’s striking is not only its scale and persistence, and the variation and escalation in tactics, but the degree of unity that it has maintained over two-and-a-half months. Even when they disagree over what actions to take, in particular the growing use of force, participants refuse to distance themselves from each other. What also unifies them is that no one pretends to know where this is heading...

    ...But at the same time, as the movement escalates and some protesters adopt increasingly violent tactics, and dozens get beaten and arrested every week, I am also gripped by a perpetual state of anxiety. What will happen to these young radicals who see themselves as “death fighters” struggling for Hong Kong’s future? What will happen to this wonderful city where I grew up?

    Tell our story to the world” many have told me over the past 12 weeks, as they handed me biscuits and drinks, and offered me a hand to get up and down barriers and roadblocks. Their words sounded eerily similar to what Beijing residents told Hong Kong and foreign reporters during the Tiananmen crackdown 30 years ago. Just that this time, it is the Hongkongers who are fighting for their rights and freedom, even though they know there is little hope ahead of them.

    “Hong Kong is dying anyway, so we might as well make a last struggle before we die,” many have said.

    I feel humbled by their trust in me.
    Lily Kuo,Tania Branigan and Verna Yu,
    https://www.theguardian.com/membership/2019/aug/31/hong-kong-protests-reporting-inside-guardian
  • Wittgenstein
    190

    Tell our story to the world
    The article really takes a plunge into the hearts of the protesters and the fear of living in a Chinese city is as real as it can get. The air of freedom and the sense of being unmonitored makes one feel alive and dignified as a human. I don't get why the British settled for 50 years deal, as if after 50 years, the people will give up their autonomy. China is a key global market player and no country is going to confront her if CCP decides to toughen up, which makes me question the reliance of the protesters on the free world. Whenever l read about Tiananmen square crackdown, l feel that, everyone who heard their cries and didn't come to their aid, failed them.
    I hope that every student who was arrested gets released as they were not protesting for any criminal reason but for humanitarian and legitimate political motives. Everyone who goes to these protests risks getting sentenced to 6~10 years in prison. That's why l hope they don't get caught in the act of rioting as it won't help the movement.
  • Amity
    697
    The article really takes a plunge into the hearts of the protesters and the fear of living in a Chinese city is as real as it can get. The air of freedom and the sense of being unmonitored makes one feel alive and dignified as a human.Wittgenstein

    I think this underlines the importance of good journalism. Also important, to interview the opposing side. No mean feat with foreign journalists being viewed with suspicion and hostility.
    I have been following the video reports of Jonathan Miller for Channel 4 news.
    The one, dated 17th August, sticks in my mind. It's only 5 mins...

    https://www.channel4.com/news/pro-china-rally-counters-pro-democracy-demo-in-hong-kong

    https://www.channel4.com/news/by/jonathan-miller

    Everyone who goes to these protests risks getting sentenced to 6~10 years in prison.Wittgenstein

    It takes courage and a certain desperation.
  • Evil
    152
    l don't see how any western country would defend public vandalism and use of arsonWittgenstein

    You're missing the point, it's more about what they (we) oppose.
  • Amity
    697
    So if you praise the rule of law, then you need to walk the talk. There are many protest actions that can be made lawfully. But when you break the law in order to protest, then there’s a risk of trashing the very thing you say you’re trying to defend.Wayfarer

    That is a fair point. But not all laws are to be praised.
    Isn't this about protesting new, oppressive laws which will take away freedom ?
    Isn't that worth fighting for?
    I don't know. I have never been in that position...

    If people are not listened to via peaceful protests - what are the alternatives ?
    Escalation of violence on both sides. War ? The outcome doesn't look good...
    Knowledge of events is one thing. Helplessness is another.

    The latest:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/01/hong-kong-protests-subway-to-airport-shut-down-as-activists-out-in-force
  • Wayfarer
    8.3k
    Isn't this about protesting new, oppressive laws which will take away freedom ?
    Isn't that worth fighting for?
    Amity

    Sure, absolutely. I certainly think all the demonstrations are for a righteous cause and I hope they lead to a good outcome. But I can't see it. At the end of the day the PRC is a one-party state and a dictatorship, I think maybe Hong Kong will never really be able to deal with that.
  • StreetlightX
    4.1k
    Protests are a means by which law - and what motivates law - is challanged. Those who would prefer that protests are carnivals may as well join the circus. There they can be party to the ineffectual transgessions of the clowns they'd like democracic citizens to be modelled after.
  • Amity
    697
    Protests are a means by which law - and what motivates law - is challanged. Those who would prefer that protests are carnivals may as well join the circus.StreetlightX

    Of course, there are different kinds of protests for different reasons with different degrees of intensity and flavour. Even within the same day.
    Of interest was the Jonathan Miller report on 17th August - it started with a milder form where he talked to a mother protesting with her children. He questioned her wisdom - but she said it was safe just then. Later on, not so much...

    Demonstrations which include a 'carnival' atmosphere where there might be singing or chanting; use of sound equipment; on-stage performers, politicians - they have their place.

    How about we all take a trip to Hong Kong ?
    March in tune with fellow humans. Singing the freedom songs.
    Yeah. Not a chance.
    We watch and hope it will never happen to us...
  • StreetlightX
    4.1k
    My point is simply that the entire point of protests - or at least certain ones, and especially the ones taking place in HK right now - is to challenge the current state of things. Ergo, those who think protest ought to take place within the boundaries and according to the dictates of that state are nothing but state apologists. My 'fellow humans' in HK happen to be family who escaped China a long time ago, precisely to avoid the sort of shit that happens there now, and threatens to bully it's way into HK. As far as I'm concerned it's happening to 'us'. Not that it matters one bit. Those who want protest without any actual protest - a bit of kum ba yah with colourful umbrellas that Western liberals can feel 'sympathy' for - can go hang themselves.

    One last thing: for all those peddling the PRC-approved line that if the protestors go 'too far', China will be 'forced' to step in and tsk-tsk, 'game over', let's not forget that such a move would be one that China and China alone would be responsible for, and not the protestors. While it's all very tempting to the blame revealing clothing of a woman for her own assault on the part of misogynist pieces of shit, the political field is no less exempt from such miserable failures of thought.
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.