• creativesoul
    6k
    Ignorance of white privilege does not make one racist.
  • T Clark
    4.1k
    Willful ignorance.creativesoul

    Mine or someone else's?
  • creativesoul
    6k
    My fault for not offering enough context...

    ...ignorance of or indifference to history infuriates me.T Clark

    Willful ignorance?
  • T Clark
    4.1k
    Ignorance of white privilege does not make one racist.creativesoul

    If you're writing about the things I've said, I never called anyone racist. I never do. I don't find racism to be a useful concept. It also sets off a bunch of emotional and defensive responses that obscure the discussion. I try to accept the good will of people in these types of discussions to the extent I can.
  • Waya
    1k
    In what matter have I misappropriated his beliefs? Quite sure he advocated for actual equality for all, which is the same mission I have. Not playing the victim card, but rather value people as people instead of skin or DNA.
  • creativesoul
    6k
    If you're writing about the things I've said, I never called anyone racist.T Clark

    Indeed. I agree. You did not.

    I was writing about what you said. I was not offering a report of what you said.

    I don't find racism to be a useful concept. It also sets off a bunch of emotional and defensive responses that obscure the discussion. I try to accept the good will of people in these types of discussions to the extent I can.T Clark

    Sounds good as long as we talk about the devaluation of another based upon race alone.

    Hard to get a good handle upon white privilege without discussing it's roots.
  • T Clark
    4.1k
    In what matter have I misappropriated his beliefs? Quite sure he advocated for actual equality for all, which is the same mission I have. Not playing the victim card, but rather value people as people instead of skin or DNA.Waya

    I'm not an expert on King and what he believed, but I'll take him at his word - equality was, and is, a dream. You know - "I have a dream." A dream for the future, not a reality for 1963 or 2019.
  • creativesoul
    6k
    Taking another at their word requires understanding what they mean. He talked about the devaluation of another based upon their race or their color of skin. We all know that that is wrong on so many levels.
  • Waya
    1k
    Dreams are concepts that need to be worked for if one wishes to achieve it. And I intend to do what I can to work towards that dream. How does one work towards a dream such as Martin Luther King's? By practicing it in one's own life. In other words, practice what you preach.
  • creativesoul
    6k


    Indeed. Some renditions of King are empty of all meaningful content.
  • Waya
    1k
    It is flustering.
  • creativesoul
    6k
    It had to be a dream, because it was not actually happening. It ought be.
  • creativesoul
    6k


    But it is such an important topic.
  • T Clark
    4.1k
    Dreams are concepts that need to be worked for if one wishes to achieve it. And I intend to do what I can to work towards that dream. How does one work towards a dream such as Martin Luther King's? By practicing it in one's own life. In other words, practice what you preach.Waya

    Let's leave it at that for now. I think we've painted ourselves into a corner. Next time we pick this up maybe we'll be able to carry it further.
  • I like sushi
    1.3k
    The very fact that you think he meant to infer I was referring to individual episodes of any country’s particular history (slavery, police brutality, etc.,.) and to portray my words in such a light does reinforce my point.

    I’m ignorant of history to some degree (who isn’t!). I’m not inclined to view the entirety of human pre/history as focused on one particular nation within one particular century. It was clear enough that I was talking in broad terms so it is not my fault that other’s take on a relatively skewed perspective alongside what I actually said and what I was referring to.

    My point about everyone dying was playing off the psychological view I referred to earlier in that post - human’s being creatures that tend to view themselves as important and, contrarily, also as insignificant and wanting to work for something important. My reply was specifically to the person I replied to and in that light I was framing the broader human enigma of general prejudice as being part of our regard toward our sense of responsibility and our fear of facing up to our unknown influence on others and influences that steer us this way or that.

    Differences in phenotypes are not significant other than being part and parcel of the human proclivity toward visual stimuli.

    I won’t use the term in the OP. I can talk about it, but I refuse to use it because I find it inappropriate and distasteful; as I do various other terms. I generally try to remember to use parenthesis when talking about ‘race’ too in the hope other’s will do the same rather than confuse it with race (as defined by science).

    ‘Prejudices’ are carried by everyone - meaning some people have irrational dislikes due to personal experiences that they’ve never addressed in a rational manner (or skewed because of over-rationalization). It is just part of survival and it has helped us get to where we are. The puzzle is how to cope with such things in complex societies. In most cases people are generally not inclined to address all their flaws and instead focus on their positive attributes instead. How to safely address our innate flaws and work with them is the responsibility of everyone - and a responsibility we tend to avoid due to its self-destructive nature.

    I understand perfectly well that there is a debate in the US, and in other countries too, about how certain demographics have been maltreated in the past and whose children’s children’s children have suffered as a repercussion.

    It is a privilege to talk about these topics with people all over the globe at the tap of a few keys without fear of being censored/imprisoned. That is not to suggest for a second that there are not problems ... to imply I would say such is self-righteous brought on by emotional reactions, induced by political agenda or just plain old ‘being a human’ and muddling through the day-to-day problems of saying stuff and being perceived as saying something different.

    To be clear, I’m quite happy to talk about how to attempt to right certain wrongs. I won’t use the term in the title of the OP though - I imagine, due to past form, most people will just be outraged than offer up any particularly reasonable course of action to deal with possible options. Drama is just more fun though and given that internet culture is flooded with ‘click bait’ journalistic pieces I’m only really inclined to listen for so long as there are numerous phrases that just get repeated over and over without the person uttering them offering up views in manner that isn’t openly biased and is decided closed of from any attempt by others who offer opposing positions simply to explore the subject.

    To address teh OP directly. Feeling ashamed of anything is to be applauded. This means you’re facing up to something that makes you uncomfortable. On the other hand I find it, in equal measures, to be rotten to the core to insist that other people should be ashamed - that is only going to cause deep-seated hatreds to surface uncontrollably. Simply expressing views about things allows others to pay attention to what is being said and maybe come to question their own positions and possible feel shame/pride or whatever the issues that arise are.

    I think all of the above is ‘common sense’ and I’m not suggesting, hinting or implying anyone in particular as ‘guilty’ of any misdemeanor anymore than I am myself ... well, in honesty that is not completely true. I have impressions that I cannot displace and I’m sure others have impressions of me that they cannot displace.

    Motivation is a difficult thing. It’s so much easier to just blame circumstances - oddly enough, in my personal experience, I find those on the bottom rung of the societal ladder tend to complain about very little indeed.

    Funny, I met a guy who’d just been to visit the US for the first time. He said he was “shocked by how many homeless people there were.” He had this mental impression that didn’t match reality as he was from a country that isn’t as “developed” (Vietnam).

    I judge myself, and necessarily judge others by my own views/standards - what else can I do other than remain open to my own ignorance and understand my perspective is always small no matter how broadly I extend it.
  • ssu
    1.5k
    And there's definitely a privilege to being part of the dominant sub-culture within a nation and that's still being male, white, straight, no tattoos etc.Benkei
    Being rich and especially being educated makes people privileged compared to others in our present society. Of course, it ought not to be any surprise that societies that try to be meritocracies, the outcome can be (and usually still is) deeply divided between those who are privileged (rich, educated, that are professionals) and those who are not. Would you have your job without higher education? I wouldn't if had not finished the gymnasium. And obviously wouldn't have two academic jobs without a Masters degree.

    Yet one should notice that there is a huge difference between being in Netherlands or Finland compared to the US here and it's the issue of race, of being 'white'. In the US 73% are considered white. If we would divide the population in similar terms, about 84-85% of Netherlands and 98-99% of Finland would be 'white'. That's because the largest ethnic minority in both European nations are other Europeans, which are considered in the US 'white'. Add to that the problematic history.

    Yet I would argue that the racial debate in the media is copied likely in the Netherlands as it is done here in Finland from the US. This happens because the media is quite global. It becomes then a bit strange especially here in a country where 98% - 99% are white and the state has no colonial history whatsoever to hear arguments that are straight from the US discourse.
  • T Clark
    4.1k
    Yet I would argue that the racial debate in the media is copied likely in the Netherlands as it is done here in Finland from the US. This happens because the media is quite global. It becomes then a bit strange especially here in a country where 98% - 99% are white and the state has no colonial history whatsoever to hear arguments that are straight from the US discourse.ssu

    In my contributions to this thread, I've tried to make it clear that my opinions apply only to the US. I have made no judgments about anywhere else.
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.