• schopenhauer1
    3.5k
    What makes you do any particular activity throughout your daily life?
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k
    Desire or perceived coercion.
  • schopenhauer1
    3.5k

    How does desire lead to the actual activity? How does the desire arise for you?
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k
    How does desire lead to the actual activity? How does the desire arise for you?schopenhauer1

    It’s a drive to accomplish something I personally value. If my drive (or what some might call a lack of drive) is to do philosophy (what others might call being lazy and unproductive), then I do philosophy. If I value having a nice yard (which I do), then I can often find the drive to do the work (which often doesn’t feel like work, but sometimes it does and I put it off for a little while, what is called “procrastination”).
  • schopenhauer1
    3.5k
    What makes doing the yard or philosophy a priority?
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k


    I like them. I also don’t like my wife getting upset with me, so I do other things (perceived coercion), too.
  • schopenhauer1
    3.5k

    So can you reconstruct how that goes answering where the desire comes from and how it leads to activities?
  • PoeticUniverse
    723
    What makes you do any particular activity throughout your daily life?schopenhauer1

    The Cosmos.
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k


    Maybe it partly has to do with indoctrination, partly socialization (learning right from wrong), partly rational thought (the hypothetical imperative), partly aesthetics, partly an inherent need to organize the world (something we’re born with). Can you think of any others?
  • schopenhauer1
    3.5k
    The Cosmos.PoeticUniverse

    Can you explain?
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k
    The limbic system provides drive. The frontal lobe organizes the world. That’s what the neuroscientists say anyways.
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k
    If you lack drive, you’re probably depressed, something that seems apparent to me given my familiarity with your discussions.
  • PoeticUniverse
    723
    Can you explain?schopenhauer1

    Cosmos to Bang to three atomic elements plus quarks/electrons to protons to stars to more atomic elements to supernovae to the rest of the atomic elements to molecules to solar systems to … bacteria to cells to oxygen atmosphere to life to oxygen breathing creatures to extinctions opening up the field to the evolution of mammals to brains to consciousness…to you doing something from all of your inputs so far…including, genetic, social, familial, and more.
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k
    Can you explain?schopenhauer1

    He’s a determinist. He believes your lack of drive was determined since the Big Bang.
  • schopenhauer1
    3.5k

    Ah the whole causal chain. So what is it that makes you do any particular activity in your daily life? I mean this as a subjective experiencer of someone who is doing the activity.
  • T Clark
    4.2k
    What makes you do any particular activity throughout your daily life?schopenhauer1

    There's really only one thing I do on a frequent basis that involves an act of will. That's getting up in the morning when I don't want to. Recently, there is another one. I broke some ribs, so now it hurts to get up out of my chair sometimes. When I know it's going to hurt, it takes an act of will (or a full bladder) to get me to move.

    Some things I do automatically unless something stops me, e.g. brush my teeth, take my pills, drink iced coffee and eat yogurt for breakfast.

    A lot of things I do out of fear, although fewer than before now that I've mostly retired. Fear of other people's expectations. Their opinion of me.

    All of these are artificial forms of motivation. Habit. External. There's another kind. It's the way I know all motivation should be. I picture it as a spring bubbling up from underground - somewhere inside me. It's the kind of motivation that feels right, that makes me happy. I know it's from the best, truest part of me. But it's hard. The signal is easy to disrupt - that's what the other types of motivation are - disruptions of the way I know I'm supposed to act.

    It's completely unconscious. I guess it's what Taoists call acting without acting. I don't think any true motivation comes from conscious thought. Thought can stop or guide action, but it can't provide the fuel. That's why I think all the questions and controversies about consciousness are overblown. They miss the point.
  • PoeticUniverse
    723
    Ah the whole causal chain. So what is it that makes you do any particular activity in your daily life? I mean this as a subjective experiencer of someone who is doing the activity.schopenhauer1

    That which my will/brain has come to be of the instant. Causes/decisions precede the subjective awareness of them.
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k
    It's completely unconscious.T Clark

    Not all of it. Not for me. I need a good reason to do a lot of things. Also, my emotions (which I’m consciously aware of), help or hinder performing a certain activity. I’m not consciously aware of which neurons fire to cause these feelings and thoughts about good or no good reasons, but that doesn’t mean that it’s all unconscious. Or did I misunderstand you?
  • schopenhauer1
    3.5k
    All of these are artificial forms of motivation. Habit. External.T Clark

    Where did this come from? Do you think habituation is a way to bypass indecisive quibbling? Or, rather, what is the benefit of habituation? Whence did you get it?

    All of these are artificial forms of motivation. Habit. External. There's another kind. It's the way I know all motivation should be. I picture it as a spring bubbling up from underground - somewhere inside me. It's the kind of motivation that feels right, that makes me happy. I know it's from the best, truest part of me. But it's hard. The signal is easy to disrupt - that's what the other types of motivation are - disruptions of the way I know I'm supposed to act.

    It's completely unconscious. I guess it's what Taoists call acting without acting. I don't think any true motivation comes from conscious thought. Thought can stop or guide action, but it can't provide the fuel. That's why I think all the questions and controversies about consciousness are overblown. They miss the point.
    T Clark

    Can you give an example in "real time" how this would look in your daily life activities and decisions?
  • schopenhauer1
    3.5k
    That which my will/brain has come to be of the instant. Causes/decisions precede the subjective awareness of them.PoeticUniverse

    So how does this look for you in real time on a daily basis? Describe what happens when you do any activity?
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k


    So you both believe that consciousness is an epiphenomen?
  • T Clark
    4.2k
    Not all of it. Not for me. I need a good reason to do a lot of things. Also, my emotions (which I’m consciously aware of), help or hinder performing a certain activity. I’m not consciously aware of which neurons fire to cause these feelings and thoughts about good or no good reasons, but that doesn’t mean that it’s all unconscious. Or did I misunderstand you?Noah Te Stroete

    Well, I don't mean someone is unaware of the feelings associated with motivation, only that they are unconscious of their source. Of course I was speaking based on my own experience, although I seriously doubt that motivation is truly generated from our conscious thoughts.
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k
    Well, I don't mean someone is unaware of the feelings associated with motivation, only that they are unconscious of their source. Of course I was speaking based on my own experience, although I seriously doubt that motivation is truly generated from our conscious thoughts.T Clark

    But what about you in particular makes you more motivated than me or Schopenhauer?
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k


    For example, did you have a good childhood? Do you have lots of good relationships? Do you enjoy your work? Is it good epigenetics?
  • T Clark
    4.2k
    Can you give an example in "real time" how this would look in your daily life activities and decisions?schopenhauer1

    Usually, I eat lunch at sometime between noon and 1:00 pm, depending on my schedule. It's pretty automatic, habitual. It's not really driven by hunger and I generally eat the same sorts of things. Then sometimes, when I haven't eaten in a while or if I've been doing physical work, I get this feeling rising up, hunger. And I'm not just hungry, I'm often hungry for something specific, sometimes unusual. Pickles. Olives. Hummus. Then when I eat, there's a great feeling of satisfaction when I eat.
  • PoeticUniverse
    723
    So you both believe that consciousness is an epiphenomen?Noah Te Stroete

    The brain uses it for something, else it wouldn't have evolved.
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k
    It sounds like you’re on autopilot a lot of the time. I’m not like that. I don’t do much. I think it’s epigenetics. Good nature and good nurture.
  • T Clark
    4.2k
    So you both believe that consciousness is an epiphenomen?Noah Te Stroete

    If that means I think consciousness is riding in the car, but not driving, I guess the answer is yes, mostly.
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k
    The brain uses it for something, else it wouldn't have evolved.PoeticUniverse

    If determinism is true, then what would be the use of consciousness?
  • T Clark
    4.2k
    But what about you in particular makes you more motivated than me or Schopenhauer?Noah Te Stroete

    I have no reason to believe that's true.
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k
    If that means I think consciousness is riding in the car, but not driving, I guess the answer is yes, mostly.T Clark

    Same question to you then. What is the evolutionary use of consciousness?
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