I never cared much for Plato myself. Too much romanticism.

Anyway, a recent study of Wall Street traders indicated that no matter whether they believed in a God or not or morality or whatever, their morality in trading just followed whatever the market would bear. You could think of it in romantic terms, but its pretty obvious its just survival of the fittest. The mindless masses may need to be lead around by the nose once in awhile, but the reality is they would often lynch anyone who dares to tell them the truth. For example, despite congressional approval dropping as low as 7% roughly 60% consistently demand that the government and mass media they call evil lie to them for their own protection and are usually too liberal about these things.

What it reflects is a memory centric systems logic along the lines of a chicken flock. Unless the majority are confronted with a serious effort by a significant minority they will fight any attempts to enlighten them as to the truth. You could think of it as a safety system similar to an autopilot. If the group is largely going on memory and inertia already its dangerous for them to shift gears and start listening to alternatives that don't have a significant percentage of support. Some airplane autopilots will just reject anyone attempting to do something totally stupid like stall the plane and a memory centric organization like the republican party might actually lynch them.

Hence, Martin Luther King's marches met serious resistance, but eventually carried the day simply because of sheer numbers and persistence. Today we have equal rights for gay marriage, but only because they were persistent and a significant minority with significant support.

"Is there any value to honesty?"

Is honesty important to you? If yes, then you must expect it in both yourself and others. If no, then that's that. Your inquiry ends there.

Why should I be honest? — MonfortS26

Forget yourself for a moment - why should others be honest? If you find a reason that implores them to be honest, then that reason therefore applies to you as well.

Everybody lies, and people who lie are usually better at getting what they want. Wouldn't it be more logical from an evolutionary standpoint to be a liar?

If you're okay with being taken advantage of in a dishonest way, then there's no reason to question whether it even matters if one tells the truth or lies.

More generally, though, I find that the Golden Rule would be a pretty fitting summation with regard to this topic.

There is value to honesty because if you are caught lying, people will not trust you anymore. It is this dynamic between personal desires and social expectations that I think keeps people relatively virtuous.

Honesty is good if it is in society's best interests or another individual's best interest. But honesty to make yourself feel better and not to make the other person feel better is a self serving act.

Isn't everything a self serving act? can you actually do something not out of self interest?

Why should I be honest? — MonfortS26

Being honest helps with PR.

IF you lie a lot you MUST have an excellent memory, else you start getting tripped up by your own lies. Like, "Which lies about my sudden wealth have I told to whom? There are 5 different versions out there already. I'm confused about who knows what. It's so hard to keep all these stories straight."

Yes, we do indeed all lie at times. Sometimes it is merely expedient to lie, sometimes the truth is too cruel to speak. But most people tell the simple truth most of the time because there just isn't anything to gain from lying. Sometimes people tell the truth even if there is something to be gained by lying, because they believe they should be truthful, and they like to think of themselves as truthful.

If you are going to lie about delicate matters (like "Where were you, dearest, last night when I called you at 2:00 in the morning?") you have to be able to think on your feet. Maybe you were busy screwing somebody when you should have been home in bed with your wife. If you are suddenly asked the question, can you come up with a plausible lie? On the spot? Liars need to be able to ad lib. If you can't, then one bad lie leads to another and another, until the truth is the only thing left. And the truth delayed is usually the truth that does the most damage.

People will begin to always just assume you're lying even when you're not, and begin to just stoput listening.

There is value to honesty because if you are caught lying, people will not trust you anymore. — darthbarracuda

Well yesterday pretty much knocked that on the head!

How do you think Trump managed to keep the trust of american citizens after repeatedly lying to them?

I have squandered my resistance
For a pocket full of mumbles, such are promises
All lies and jests
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest

Says it all, really. Many will have convinced themselves that making America great again is worth the cost of being lied to, others that only a liar is capable of getting the necessary changes enacted. The cognitive dissonance of entrusting a man with the business of the entire nation whom you would probably not do business with personally will have been firmly repressed by the shining goal.

I question how much control I have on my circumstances. My efforts some times give me more than my expectation, some times less and some times none at all. There has to be a dimension beyond all my abilities and my understanding of the world. Look at how the smartest politicians plunged their nations into the world wars, which produced no real winners. how very smart people sometimes get defeated miserably. But I do know that when I steal from brother, shortchange a friend, or break my promise, I feel so bad that my joy of resulting material gain is dwarfed. As I go on my smart spree I like myself less and less.

This raises a question in mind, "do I have more control over how I can make myself feel than on the outside world?" Seems like I have total control over how I can make myself feel about myself.

Some times pain and defeat come from no where. Some times you see good people suffering a lot. But if my control on the outside affairs is limited, or none, then the only thing I can worry about is my self image. On the average I see that good people create a good world for themselves, and bad ones get surrounded by bad things.

Honesty brings forth the comfort of trust so that it is there when you need it. A sense of security that others will believe you. It is very healthy when it suits one's moral center. It will not be as beneficial to someone who fully embraces lying and is comfortable with it.

The scientific methodology is only successful with honesty. Science is an empirical system where the results of many small experiments, each relying on the results of others, produces a synthetic model for reality. The benefits of science could not exist if the people conducting the experiments are not honest.

Isn't everything a self serving act? can you actually do something not out of self interest? — MonfortS26

Do you mean to dismiss things like altruism, charity, kindness, love etc. as ultimately self-serving?

If you are then I take issue with that. The concept of ought-can must be familiar to you. If a person ought to perform an act then it must be that s/he can perform the act. Conversely, if you're incapable of doing something then it absolves the person from responsibility to do that particular thing.

Since the self can never be extracted from the moral equation or any other human-centric activity, objections to altruism and other ''good'' acts on that ground is moot.

We must hold in great respect acts/thoughts of kindness and good because they demonstrably benefit others, self-serving notwithstanding.

When trying to define justice, I came to the conclusion that no one deserves anything, unless a contract was made. The closest thing to justice might be making choices that are wise; which to me means that given all the correct information, one would have the least regret (assuming plural empathy) if the most wise choice was made. In order to have as much correct information as possible (otherwise wisdom would be purely retrospect) information should be available (voiced) and true (honest).

Although, these definitions could easily be replaced by individual justice and wisdom, which would be concerned with betterment of an individuals standing and ability to increase agency through choice. In this case your own betterment would be dependent on correct information, which would require others to be honest (assuming they are not misinformed), and have a voice (ability to communicate).

I think that all those things are self serving. People do good things for others because it produces a good feeling.

I'm not sure what you mean by the concept of ought-can though. Would you care to elaborate?

It's a principle which asserts that If one ought to act then it is necessary that one can.

In other words if one can't act then it's not necessary that one ought to act

In morality or any other anthropocentric action it is not possible to remove the ''self'' from the morality (we can't). Therefore it is not necessary to remove it (there is no ought) from the consideration at hand. In other words since the ''self'' can't be eliminated from the equation it has no/diminished relevance in tye matter.

It's no big deal. We do it all the time e.g. when grow a rose bush in your garden we can't do it without thorns. So, the thorns lose their relevance as far as the beauty of the plant is concerned.

This is a question that could be answered through demonstration if there were any doubt, although trolling is not permitted here, and I doubt your doubt. You've almost certainly been lied to before, and you've almost certainly thought that it was wrong for you to have been lied to at least some of those times. Why doubt yourself? You were probably right at least some of the time, because, frankly, people can be dicks.

On the average I see that good people create a good world for themselves, and bad ones get surrounded by bad things. — Ashwin Poonawala

Good people in bad surroundings become lonely, whereas bad people in good surroundings become famous.

I think there is value to honesty if you believe in mortality. Because if you are able to distinguish between right and wrong, lying should not be a tool of yours. The flip side is that if you believe that once you die you disappear into nothingness, why not lie? Morality would not have a say on your "afterlife" destiny.

do I have more control over how I can make myself feel than on the outside world? — Ashwin Poonawala

With the caveat that I don't believe that it's something plausibly quantifiable, no, I don't believe that you have any more control over how you feel than you do of the outside world. You have some control over both, but there are many ways in which you have very little control.

Seems like I have total control over how I can make myself feel about myself. — Ashwin Poonawala

If so, try this. When you steal from your brother, when you shortchange your friend, etc. can you make yourself feel ecstatically guilt-free about it? If not, then you clearly do not have total control over how you feel about yourself.

There are many reasons, and you will eventually discover them based on various circumstances.

Our mind is like a child. You have to coax it to change it; harsh methods boomerang. It is like changing a habit, it is a slow process, but success comes with time and persistence. It depends on how deeply the habit is associated with pleasure in our mind.

I could figure things out and produce desired results faster than many others at work. But each time my expectations for the reward, like advancement, were sabotaged by my arrogant push. It is the ego that tells us what we deserve. It took me years to stop blaming others, and to turn the inquiry for the reasons inward. As my ego got detached from my efforts more and more II started getting positive results, sometimes immediately, and sometimes belated. But when they were late in coming, I did not defeat my self, and slowly the positive results piled up. My ego kept me from approaching my full potential.

I had a very cherished cause from my childhood. After I reached the ability, I applied myself fully. I was going to reform that part of my world. Well, the world did not change as much as expected, only I acquired deep satisfaction of being true to my heart in applying my efforts. I look back, and see that if I had been able to detach my ego from the start, and had not been so sure about my diagnosis, I would have been able to understand the existing problem more and to adjust to the changing situations, and would have come out with much better results. Also the whole episode would not have been so painful, because of the defeats and the occasional resentment in the recipients of my efforts. In other words, do your best without worrying about the end results. This tells me that I don't have much, if any, control over the world, but have full control over my mind. I think, as we change, our world changes accordingly. It is like, to correct the movie film, rather than trying to correct the projection on the screen. The movie strip resides in my mind.

Have you ever tried to change a loved one's attitude? It changes only with suffering you willingly accept to make the change. While you are willingly making the sacrifices, you are reforming your mind. A couple of such successes makes you a person who is not bothered by similar attitudes from others any longer. You cannot change the world, only yourself.

We see many times, a caring person creates a caring world, a violent person makes his world violent, and a cheater lives in a cheating world. It seems like life is a mirror that reflects our attitude. There are instances of an honest person getting cheated in his life, but the overall gain outweighs the losses by far.

See how right my thinking is. If it is flawed, this will not be the first time.

Ego makes us sure of our views. It is good to always have 5% doubt. Our passions distort our perceptions of reality.

I have a different opinion than others. Sometimes you need to be dishonest to be honest. Being honest every time may not produce results for you.

I have a different opinion than others. Sometimes you need to be dishonest to be honest. Being honest every time may not produce results for you. — Richard Thompson

Maybe, but your dishonesty impacts more than just what "results" are produced for you. What about the results that are produced within the person you are lying to?

Why should I be honest? Everybody lies, and people who lie are usually better at getting what they want. Wouldn't it be more logical from an evolutionary standpoint to be a liar? — MonfortS26

To get what you want most often requires help from others. In order for others to assist you in getting what you want, you must express yourself clearly so that there is no ambiguity and confusion, or misunderstanding, as to what you want from the others. Lying only creates such confusion and misunderstanding. So there is no such general principle, that lying enables one to better get what one wants, the general principle is the opposite, truthfulness enables one to better get what one wants. However, if one is a well practised liar, and knows precisely the particular instances in which lying will be useful, that person may be able to use lying in a productive way, by interjecting lies when it is perceived that they would be beneficial. This is called deception. Even though deception can be useful in helping one get what one wants, it often backfires with substantial consequences. The general principle that lying is counter-productive holds as true in most circumstances.

From the perspective of a victim of more than one of these unfortunate social injustices, it seems to be that you have experienced none of these things, nor have put any action towards solving these issues.

If you did, your comment would have lacked such an inadvertently benighted assumption as to what the biggest threats to global welfare are, and what the demographical makeup of victims actually looks like.

There are a few insightful documentaries on Netflix that may help with economical, empathetical, and frankly, common sensicle updates for further insight.