• YiRu Li
    121
    1. What characterizes the mindset associated with honesty? Considering that individuals may occasionally engage in falsehoods, how do we conceptualize the mindset of honesty? Is 'honest' a noun or a verb? Can one still be deemed an honest person if they occasionally engage in deception?

    2. Inequality is the root cause of dishonesty.
    e.g. good <-> evil, rich <-> poor, beautiful <-> ugly, young <-> old, high <-> low, correct <-> wrong, have <-> not have, strong <-> weak, left <-> right, subjective <-> objective, absolute <-> relative
    For each unequal situation, we can find a dishonest example in daily life.
    e.g. violence: strong <-> weak, hypocrite: correct <-> wrong.

    This world is not equal and we can’t change it externally.

    But there is a way to deal with the inequalities and be peaceful & honest.
    What is the way?

    [new thread]
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/14869/what-is-the-way-to-deal-with-inequalities/p1


    -----------------------------------------------------

    Chinese medicine says about 5,000 years ago,
    everyone lived one hundred years without showing the usual signs of aging.

    I read the following paragraph which describes the society of that time.
    I don't quite understand it, so I started this philosophy discussion.
    Chinese medicine is always studied together with philosophy.

    -The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine (Maoshing Ni), chapter 1-
    The accomplished ones of ancient times advised people to guard themselves against zei feng, disease-causing factors. On the mental level, one should remain calm and avoid excessive desires and fantasies, recognizing and maintaining the natural purity and clarity of the mind. When internal energies are able to circulate smoothly and freely, and the energy of the minds is not scattered, but is focused and concentrated, illness and disease can be avoided.

    Previously, people led a calm and honest existence, detached from undue desire and ambition; they lived with an untainted conscience and without fear. They were active, but never depleted themselves. Because the lived simply, these individuals knew contentment, as reflected in their diet of basic but nourishing foods and attire that was appropriate to the season but never luxurious. Since they were happy with their position in life, they did not feel jealousy or greed. They had compassion for others and were helpful and honest, free from destructive habits. They remained unshakable and unswayed by temptations, and they were able to stay centered even when adversity arose. They treated others justly, regardless of their level of intelligence or social position.
  • AmadeusD
    2.6k
    I think this depends on your moral standpoint, but i would say deontolog-ism is a good start. I believe that strong deontology requires never, ever being dishonest in any scenario regardless of context.
  • RogueAI
    2.9k
    White lies are the glue that holds society together. I believe a person can be considered honest even if they lie from time to time. What keeps me mostly honest is I like to think of myself as an honest person, and I don't like to fall short of that.

    Also, welcome to the Forum!
  • RogueAI
    2.9k
    I believe that strong deontology requires never, ever being dishonest in any scenario regardless of context.AmadeusD

    But that's where it falls apart. Are you really supposed to tell the SS where the Jews are hiding?
  • AmadeusD
    2.6k
    Yes. To lie would be to disrespect yourself to a degree that is unacceptable to a deontologist (is my understanding)
  • hypericin
    1.6k
    What characterizes the mindset associated with honesty?YiRu Li

    I would say there is not one universal "honest mindset". People are honest for various reasons:

    * A sense of moral obligation to be honest
    * A sense of dignity in being honest
    * A fear of the consequence of being caught in a lie
    * A desire to connect genuinely with the other person
    * A pragmatic desire to forgo maintaining a web of lies

    And so on. Each might have a characteristic mindset. I don't know if there is a unifying state of mind that unites them all.


    Is 'honest' a noun or a verb?YiRu Li
    I always thought the tendency to nounify something which seems more of an attribute, and adjective/adverb, was a little strange. Due to this nounifying tendency of English, honesty becomes something you can "have" or "not have", an object you carry around with you, and may lose one day. Due to this linguistic quirk, one may wonder, what is the "essence" of this honesty? What is it made of?

    Can one still be deemed an honest person if they occasionally engage in deception?YiRu Li

    Honesty, like most things in life, is not a black and white quality. One may be more or less honest. Even if you occasionally lie, you may still be considered basically honest. I would suspect that there might be something mentally wrong with a person who literally never lied.

    Welcome, YiRu!
  • hypericin
    1.6k
    Yes. To lie would be to disrespect yourself to a degree that is unacceptable to a deontologist (is my understanding)AmadeusD

    Someone who values their own self-perceived "respect" so much that would condemn an innocent to a terrible death for its sake, operates under a deeply flawed moral system, I think most would agree.
  • frank
    16k

    Honesty often makes you vulnerable. It takes some inner strength to embrace that vulnerability, and that's related to your values. For instance, if you've made a mistake and it could impact someone's well being, being honest shows that you care about others.
  • AmadeusD
    2.6k
    Someone who values their own self-perceived "respect" so much that would condemn an innocent to a terrible death for its sake, operates under a deeply flawed moral system, I think most would agree.hypericin

    I am not a deontologist. So am free to agree with you. My understanding is that as lying perverts communication, a deontologist cannot, ever, lie, to be consistent. But i agree with you at least intuitively.
  • I like sushi
    4.9k
    What characterizes the mindset associated with honesty?YiRu Li

    To be combative and free. To be honest requires acting and speaking in a genuine manner. Doing such will lead to necessary conflict. An honest person can only be honest if they are strong willed.
  • hypericin
    1.6k
    My understanding is that as lying perverts communication, a deontologist cannot, ever, lie, to be consistent.AmadeusD

    Deontology merely means a rules-based ethical system. The word itself does not imply a specific set of rules. A ruleset which included "Above everything else, do not lie", would be flawed. Kant, for instance, was more sophisticated than to include such things in his deontology.
  • I like sushi
    4.9k
    Can one still be deemed an honest person if they occasionally engage in deception?YiRu Li

    No. This is under the assumption that we generally label ‘deception’ as a negative aspect of humans. That said, we often lie to avoid what we deem as ‘unnecessary’ conflict. I think it is reasonable to lie from an efficiency perspective as causing conflict can inhibit/scupper more progressive lines of investigation/communication.
  • I like sushi
    4.9k
    I try to always keep Richard Feynman’s quote in mind:

    “People are easily fooled, and the easiest person to fool is yourself.”
  • AmadeusD
    2.6k
    Fair, in general. But, not quite my understanding based on multiple academic sources. One below, directly dealing with the issue:

    https://www.merton.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/inline-files/Roman-Evans.pdf

    From the above:

    "From a deontological point of view lying is always wrong (as is deceit for that matter), on the basis that communication is a process needed for prosperity and that truth communicates but a lie does not. Therefore, on this basis lying is always wrong. In the case that there is a clear and moral alternative to a lie then of course anyone would agree that this point of view stands true. But one might ask ‘What if a lie prevented an action worse than a lie from occurring?’ And this essay would answer that from a deontological perspective the lie must still be wrong as a lie is always wrong."

    (I understand the Isenberg definition to in fact be Kantian from Arnold Isenberg's essay Deontology and the Ethics of Lying - https://www.jstor.org/stable/2104756 - but i don't have access)

    Another, though, i've just pulled this one out for mentioning Kantian ethics specifically:

    https://books.openedition.org/obp/4433?lang=en#:~:text=That%20is%2C%20if%20the%20consequences,be%20morally%20acceptable%20to%20lie.

    "That is, if the consequences of lying are better than telling the truth then we are morally required to lie. The deontologist — the Kantian or Divine Command Theorist for example — thinks that lying is always wrong. There are no situations at all when it would be morally acceptable to lie."
  • Vera Mont
    4.4k
    Is 'honest' a noun or a verb?YiRu Li

    Neither. It's an adjective: An honest person is one who can be relied on not to cheat, deceive or mislead others. Honesty is the characteristic such a person displays.
    However, being an honest person does not necessarily mean that one never tells a falsehood for any reason, and never withholds information that is requested. Honesty may be tempered with kindness, loyalty, discretion and tact. The mindset is one of social responsibility (no community of humans functions well without a good deal of mutual trust.) and personal integrity (One takes a certain pride in being forthright and upright.)
  • Vandor
    1
    I would say that to have an honest mindset you have to experience, at the very least, discomfort in telling a known falsehood.
    I don't think anyone in life ever gets away as 100% truly honest though so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and others and allow some leeway in our definitions and standards
  • javi2541997
    5.9k
    Is 'honest' a noun or a verb?YiRu Li

    Neither. It's an adjective:Vera Mont

    As Vera said, it is an adjective. I don't know if you are looking for a philosophical definition, but in terms of philology and vocabulary we can define 'honest' as: telling the truth or able to be trusted.
  • L'éléphant
    1.6k
    Can one still be deemed an honest person if they occasionally engage in deception?YiRu Li
    Honesty is a situational behavior, not a permanent trait of a person. Do not burden someone with that label because it isn't always necessary to be honest at all times. White lies serve the purpose of kindness. Of course, honesty serves that purpose as well.

    Is 'honest' a noun or a verb?YiRu Li
    An adjective, if I take your question literally.
  • I like sushi
    4.9k
    Is 'honest' a noun or a verb?YiRu Li

    I will assume you are not ignorant. I would side with saying it is something you are rather than something you do … but clearly one without the other is kind of meaningless.

    What I mean is some people ‘try’ to be honest whilst for others it is just who they are. I would have reservation about anyone claiming again and again that they are ‘honest’.
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    What characterizes the mindset associated with honesty?YiRu Li

    Not sure I understand this part - what's a mindset? Do you mean a personality?

    Can one still be deemed an honest person if they occasionally engage in deception?YiRu Li

    Who knows? The question is a bit vague.

    Criminals can be very honest with each other and follow a code, even if they ultimately profit through dishonesty and terror. How a person presents to us will often depend upon the context. A father may be honest to his family and dishonest to his boss. Combinations are endless.

    I generally think people are a mix of honest and dishonest choices and the context is important. Can I trust this plumber to do a job for me? Can I trust my friend? These are situational.

    However, the more philosophical question, is my friend virtuous, may be unanswerable and not entirely relevant to my experience of them.
  • YiRu Li
    121
    Can honesty be considered a culmination of a particular mindset? Is it contingent upon possessing this mindset, implying that without it, genuine honesty is unattainable?
  • Pantagruel
    3.4k
    Can honesty be considered a culmination of a particular mindset? Is it contingent upon possessing this mindset, implying that without it, genuine honesty is unattainable?YiRu Li

    Are you asking whether this is a fundamental property, that one either is or is not honest?

    From my perspective, honesty is the prerequisite for accurate communication, which is the foundation of cooperative social activity. So in addition to being intrinsically or inherently desirable, honesty is also selected for pragmatically.
  • Angelo Cannata
    354
    Honesty does not exist, it never existed.

    Let’s go to the very roots of the question.

    Maths is not honest when it tells you that 2+2=4, because that moment Maths is hiding from you all the contradictions and absurdities that it contains, such as imaginary and irrational numbers. If Maths, that we assume as the most elementary base that we can conceive at the roots of the world, is dishonest and contradictory, if nature itself is dishonest, how can we be honest? This means that the very concept of honesty is just a product of our creative imagination, like winged horses.

    We can try to be honest, because we need to criticize the metaphysics of Maths, but we can only proceed in a very humble way, by vague, weak and generic attempts, referring to our creativity, poetry, humanity, making use of a lot of criticism and self-criticism, nothing more precise or definite than this.
  • flannel jesus
    1.9k
    isn't honest an adjective?
  • YiRu Li
    121
    I feel there is a mindset behind honesty.
    Without that mindset, honesty doesn't exist.
  • Pantagruel
    3.4k
    As others have asked, how are you defining "mindset" ?

    For example, you are (we assume) being honest in your questioning. But your terminology is unclear. Does this reflect a lack of honesty in your mindset?
  • YiRu Li
    121
    Is the meaning of 'honest' the same in adj and in verb.? Does it have a verb.? Does it mean we can't do it, it's a final product of something else?
  • wonderer1
    2.2k
    I feel there is a mindset behind honesty.
    Without that mindset, honesty doesn't exist.
    YiRu Li

    Autism?
  • YiRu Li
    121
    Is there something else behind 'honest'? without it, 'honest' doesn't exist.
  • Lionino
    2.7k
    Is 'honest' a noun or a verbYiRu Li

    Honest is not a noun or verb. It is an adjective.

    Honest does not a verb like "rage" does. I feel rage. I am raging. It is like 'calm' as in you can only say "I am honest". This is an English question more than philosophy.
  • Pantagruel
    3.4k
    ↪Pantagruel Is there something else behind 'honest'? without it, 'honest' doesn't exist.YiRu Li

    Honesty implies truth. Your choice whether or not to tell the truth is always your choice.
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