• Terrapin Station
    So, our perception of things is always an interpretation, we perceive an always already interpreted world, in other words, and all our judgements are judgements of and about an interpreted world.Janus

    Are you also saying that because of language a la Banno (who was agreeing with Wittgenstein, wasn't he?) or are you saying it for some other reason? (I couldn't say why Heidegger thinks it, by the way.)

    The language comment is extremely confused in my view. If there's another reason you're saying this, though, what's the reason, and what would be the support of it?

    It seems a bit odd to me to use the word "interpretation" in a sense that isn't connected to meaning, but I can't imagine that you have a view that perception can't obtain without assigning meaning to what's perceived.
  • Harry Hindu
    Try this: what exactly does it mean to say that an object exists mind-independently, apart from the obvious "It's there when no one is around". We know what it means to say an object we perceive is there; we can see it. touch it and so on. We don't know what it means for an unperceived object to be there: the best we can say is that if we were there we would be able to see it, touch and so on. But that really amounts to saying nothing at all outside of the context of perception.Janus

    What do mean "what is your brain like or where does your mind go when you are alone in a dreamless sleep"?

    Can you explain what you think the relevance of this question (these questions?) is to what you have quoted me as saying above?

    I'll hazard an answer in any case: for me my brain is not like anything, because I am not directly aware of its existence; I believe it exists via secondhand accounts that tell me that if my skull were opened there wold be brain to be found there.
    If you're questioning an object's existence independent of some perception of it, then I ask you what your mind is like when no one is perceiving it. How is it that your mind can cease to exist and then come back retaining its memories and sense of self? Notice that I haven't used the word, "brain". Your mind is an object in the world that others can perceive. If we couldn't then how did it ever come to pass that someone made the claim that other minds exist? You might say that I don't know that other minds exist, but unfortunately solipsism brings its own baggage that make it untenable.

    Why can I still see your body when you are asleep and dreaming, that seems to behave as if you are having a dream? If dreaming were a different reality, then why is your body still here in this one and why would I see you acting out your dream in this world (talking in your sleep, moving your arms and legs, sleep walking, etc.)? Your brain in this world still has a hold of your consciousness in some way even when you mind is off in another. By looking at your brain, I can get a clue of whether or not you are using sensory data supplied by the senses or the brain itself.

    I haven't said we can't observe things; we do it all the time. I haven't said we cannot "get at" (if by that you mean 'perceive') objects, either, so I don't know where this is coming from.Janus
    Well then, what do you mean by "observe" and "perceive"? Where is the perception relative to the perciever?
  • Amity
    Sadly it seems that you misinterpreted a lot of what I said.leo
    It 'seems' or I did ? It is not so very sad, is it?

    I don't think you are expressing your personal situation and frustration as honestly or succinctly as you might. It's perhaps easier to generalise about people or the many. Or to block or detach by intellectualisation as per OP.

    The words I say do not convey what's in my mind, they convey your idea of what's in my mind based on what the words mean to you.leo

    Say again ?

    What's the difference between imagination and reality? You classify some experiences as 'real' and some experiences as 'imaginary', what criteria do you use to make that distinction?leo

    There can be a difference between what I think or imagine is the case and what is actually the case or state of affairs. The gap can be filled with facts and knowledge about the world.

    Many people dismiss spiritual experiences as hallucination or imagination, in other words as something that doesn't really exist, because they haven't had them.leo

    Yes. That can be the case. It still doesn't stop people telling their stories or others listening to them.
    Sometimes to understand, other times to scoff. We can't directly experience such, only indirectly.
    Sometimes we are helped by imagination or empathy.

    If your idea of what's 'real' doesn't match the social consensus on what's 'real', then you are deemed to be delusional. People get locked up and forcefully drugged because they are 'delusional'leo

    Has that been your experience ?

    Many people believe they have access to the one 'reality' that applies to everyone, to "the way things are" that applies to everyone, and use that as a justification to impose things onto others, to tell others what to believe in and what not to believe in, to ridicule those who believe differently or to label them as mentally ill, to force them to agree with "the way things are" because that's the way things are, no matter what they might say, if they protest and refuse to submit then that's because they're really sick or really stupid, and if they don't agree that they are objectively inferior beings then that's all the more reason to force them into submission, because how can they not see the one reality in front of them?leo

    Is this your experience ? Have you been so labelled ?

    I think it's easier to listen when we don't pretend to know what others experience and what they don't, what's real and what isn't.leo

    I think listening comes first. I am not sure that people pretend to know. They are trying to see things from another perspective and that isn't easy. Sometimes it can frustrate when others in an attempt to offer sympathy say ' I know how you feel ' or ' I've been there'. They don't and haven't.

    However, they might have experienced something similar. And are only trying to make some kind of a connection. It might be 'sad' or unfortunate if the connection fails...either the sender, the message or the receiver crackles white noise and gets lost in translation...
    We can only do our best.

    Anyway, I have just experienced deja vu. You know what that's like ? A similar conversation, another time, another place.
    I will end it here.

    Best wishes.
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