• Deleted User
    0
    1. Developing countries’ citizens do not have as high-paying options that developed countries’ citizens have.

    2. Products are created (eg. clothing) in the outsourced environment of developing countries because of cheaper labor than in the developed countries.

    3. This allows a cheaper product to be produced, and on a large scale.

    4. This allows consumers in developed countries to purchase items at a low price, which sustains their expected standard of living (eg types of food, clothing).

    5. This situation for laborers at the very base of the production part of the supply chain means they often work in unjust situations because they do not have other higher-wage or safer options for work, and so do not have a choice.

    6. If the workers were to be paid or treated in the same way a person in a developed country was and if corporations had to consider sustainability in their business model, then:

    The product could be at a higher price

    If consumption went down, lower profit

    If consumption stayed the same, lower profit

    The product could be at the same price

    If consumption stayed the same, lower profit

    If consumption went down, lower profit

    7. So in the current model the low-wage laborer is the only part of the supply chain where costs can be reduced for a product to be mass marketed at a price cheap enough for developed standards of consumption (eg. meat).

    8. If the laborer “rebels” then their own government or employer may oppress them to keep the corporation there or the factory running, or the corporation may leave.  Neither option is desirable.

    9. Instead, developed consumers justify this basic violation of human rights and sustainability by claiming nobody is owed a job (and so assuming these laborers have a just set of choice options) and that there are many worse options for them, so they are actually helping the laborers.

    10. As is obvious, the premise of the current model is the acceptance of inequality in extreme levels in ways that developed countries would not accept within their own populace.  The attitude then described above is one of entitlement, greed, short-term profits, and consumerism. There is a clear absence of awareness or acknowledgement of the discrepancy between the luxurious standards of living within the developed and the exploited slave laborer. To sustain this model or accept it as it is, one must have a complete lack of empathy, and form a belief system to justify this.

    11. So the system as a whole, as far as sustainability and social justice goes, needs to be transformed on a global scale into a sustainable, ethical one that is preferably not forced on us by necessity/nature or excess conflict.  


    How to deal with the problem:


    Ideology is a big part of the problem. Many individuals feel entitled to what they have based on the neoliberal modern western free actor model. This ideology served its use in bringing us to a modern version of the democratic model as it reacted to the previous traditions of religion and political models, but it is now outdated. We are now more rights-based in reaction to the way society used to operate before, but we have taken it to an extreme and become too reactionary. We are post-colonial now, and realize in some spheres that we do not want to punish somebody for becoming what their environment at times strongly influences them into becoming, but neither should we horizontally stratify everything because physical life will never be completely “fair” or outwardly equal, so that is not an ideal to which we should strive. To find the balance in our context is to not tolerate what seems to be exploitation tied to the consequences of modern free market capitalism - extreme inequality possible as the consequence of denying basic rights which should be granted to all living humans on this planet (ideally - we obviously are not there yet, and must first see whether it is possible practically at all). The scales have tended towards injustice at this point, as should be relatively obvious.  The single cause of this situation is the nature of industrialization, globalization, conglomeration, and consumerism, within all sectors of the political and economic spheres. With the rise of modern empiricism and materialistic value systems as the underpinning of these trends, we have a new status quo philosophically for our interpretation of reality. But all history requires cyclical renovations, and so I will propose a very basic thought process which can help us orient ourselves towards survival and justice on Earth.


    This is not the consumer or the corporation’s “fault.” It is a systemic problem that organically arose out of the evolution of history, nature and culture. The system is merely now showing itself to be inapplicable to our modern sociological factors.  It is simply outdated. We need to apply structure to the economy without trying to change somebody’s thought and emotional processes, being susceptible to corruption, without being overly socialistic, and without destroying markets. The problem is global, so we need global solutions in policy.


    The way to do this is by changing the way people think, and making their elected officials responsible only to them, and not corporate or moneyed interests. Education of the populace allows the citizenship to not use the government against themselves. This has to come from outside of government and other sources of propaganda - the way democracy was originally set up. We have deviated from that because of one reason: ideology. Ideology is based on assumptions, assumptions that people fear to let go of and which arouse anger and conflict when argued about. These ideologies are merely interpretations of the reality we live in, and in the modern world are about increasingly data-filled and complex issues, where contradictory claims are easily reified to no benefit for the public. We need to find sensible compromises that bridge ideologies’ gaps, to create pragmatic plans of action that actually deal with environmental and social problems. There is no need to list these elaborately here, as anybody who is even slightly familiar with these topics will know this.


    Because agriculture is the root of many global problems I choose it as my example to explain these points. Agriculture is increasingly becoming globalized, industrialized, and conglomerated. Many people know the long list of problems caused by big agriculture, so I wont bother to list them in detail here. I will merely point out that the current global food system is creating farmers who grow food for exports and cannot make enough money to buy food for themselves, per the above model. This is nonsensical. Being a young farmer myself, it is obvious to me that sustainable agriculture is not an industrialized, commodified, largely globalized system. Focusing on the consumer to enact change perhaps by purchasing organic foods or using less water on a daily basis are not targeting the cause of the environmental and social problems created by agriculture. Those are still very much industrialized. Meat is the key example within the sector of agriculture. Development standards are allowing people around the world to expect to eat more meat, even though it is a very inefficient agricultural process. If less meat was eaten by the growing population that used sustainable and not industrial production techniques, it would be much, much easier to feed the earth’s population. Instead, in America, we see big agriculture market their machinery, seeds, and chemicals on the premise that *this* is the way to feed the world. This is propaganda at its finest, as it has conned so many farmers under the romantic ideal of the stewards of nature to actually believe that they are doing society a service by farming this way. Universities and education systems do not argue against this, but merely use details to support this extremely simple and completely false argument. The people think that the media tells them that some agri-tech company is out to help the world and help them farm better, when in reality it is their worst enemy packaged in emotionalism to keep them ignorant. Consumers need to change, agricultural production needs to change, but most of all policy needs to change. We need to begin supporting local markets, very detailed analyses of resources and come up with global-local solutions about how to use them, etc.


    In any sector, in any example, I argue here that if we take the principles of sustainability and apply them within the economic sphere, social justice and survival will be sustained because of the nature of the relationship between our *shared* resources and the nature of markets. Again, let us refer to meat consumption. If we find alternative meats, if we eat less meat, if we eat organic or local meat, if the government stops supporting agro-tech methodologies and takes into account their cost on the environment, if we educate people correctly, etc then the current economic model will not be sustained, re-organizing the global markets into more local networks, eliminating the exploitative heirarchy, and sustainability will be facilitated. If we apply this strategy, whether by technological innovation, consumer change, or policy change, then naturally the markets (as the outcome of those factors) will become more ethical and sustainable.
  • BC
    13.2k
    The cost of labor in a finished product, say a shoe, a shirt, a phone, a lawn mower, is -- rule of thumb -- about 10% of the retail price, give or take a little. Where does the rest of the costs that make up the price come from?

    Raw material, transportation, distribution (warehousing), advertising, finance charges, and profit. Some products have a wide margin of profit (Apple iPhone X, for example). Your shirt, made in Malaysia, or your pair of socks made in Nicaragua, have a very narrow margin of profit.

    All of the factory, ship, warehouse, trucking, and mall owners take another small cut in profit at each stage of getting the shoe, shirt, or shoe laces from the factory to you.

    Some products like necessities -- basic clothing -- could be made somewhat cheaper if profit was removed from the system at each stage of production. Other products, like the iPhone, which are unnecessary luxury goods, could stand to have a lot of profit (for Apple, Foxcomm, shippers) taken out to make the phones much cheaper. OR, wages could be increased substantially--but not both.

    What is the likelihood of this happening? Approximately zero. It SHOULD be done, but it most likely will NOT BE DONE.
  • BC
    13.2k
    The trouble with the dominant Capitalist system (everywhere) is that it is predicated on always making a profit from each transaction, and on continual growth in the market. Each company, whether National Shoe, or Apple, or Exxon, or Green Giant, or Sunshine Crackers is involved in a chain of producers, manufacturers, distributors, wholesalers, and retailers all slicing off their share of what is, they hope, an ever larger pie.

    Perpetually growing markets is a major piece of the global climate crisis, and one of the major causes of economic collapse. Economic systems eventually produce more stuff than they can possibly sell, consumers reach a point where they can't buy any more, the market grinds to a halt, and a recession or depression can result (that's one cause of depressions).

    Capitalism will eventually disappoint us; it will eventually fuck us over. It isn't that it wants to screw up everything -- all that is just built into the system.
  • Tzeentch
    3.3k
    It is often suggested that laborers from low-income countries are victims, but this foregoes the fact that they work for low wages voluntarily. Why? Because if it they weren't providing cheap labor they wouldn't be making any money. It's a matter of supply and demand, and all parties, that is to say nearly everyone, consumer, supplier, producer, are complicit of maintaining the status quo.

    We live in a world in which money and material wealth are worshipped over all other things. In such a world, exploitation of human capital (and the environment, for that matter) is not only unavoidable, it's done with the consent of all parties.
  • Deleted User
    0
    Phrasing it that way is just nonsense semantics. It doesn't justify a farmer making such little money that they can't even buy food because they grow exotic products for the wealthy foreigners. Having a choice between starving and having a job which makes you almost starve is not the choice of the laborer. It is the Uber wealthy who facilitate the reiteration of that choice scheme, so everybody is not equally complicit, that is nonsense. Those with more power, who use more extreme justifications, like yours, are far more blameworthy. It is at most basic a question of whether you want to exploit the global market for cheaper and cheaper labor, or whether you want to treat those people far away the same as you'd treat anybody else in the wealthy world. All the corporations are doing is exploiting the various states of development and economic growth around the world to amass massive profits by capitalizing on the wealthys' consumerism on the other end. The consumer isn't to blame - no individual sets the rates of supply and demand.
  • I like sushi
    4.3k
    I think you’re stuck for several reasons. I don’t see any serious thought put into the practicality of what you’ve said - that may simply be because of the vast amount of information involved and the need to keep your OP reasonable in length?

    One thing that needs to be appreciated is that in global terms the western world is the biggest polluter and that global poverty has been vastly reduced thanks to capitalism being taken on by more countries. When it comes to farming there are numerous factors to consider given that if we don’t increase food production now by 2050 we’ll have reached our limit and the population will still keep growing - so unless we want mass starvation technological advances in food production need to be taken into account.

    Regarding farming and genetic foods there is a paranoia about using genetically modified animals/plants even though we’ve been doing so for centuries - the public are woefully uneducated in this area and so believe the swathes of protesters who have little more than a passing knowledge of this area of science and the sociopolitical implications as well as the health and safety issues (they only research what suits their narrative).

    One extraordinarily touchy subject for me - one that shocked me quite a lot when I learnt more about it - is farming subsidies. It is ‘unfair’ yet it may well be the only means of protecting the environment - sadly the want for money will drive people to destroy natural habitats. A deeply horrific problem to deal with. Another thing is the fact that a limited area of land is viable for growing crops - no where near enough to sustain a global veganism (so don’t listen to that jargon!).

    One thing I can certainly get onboard with is the issue of transportation. The west is far more efficient with food production (look to Holland) and so if the west can produce the food more cheaply to supply other countries - so they aren’t driven to destroy their own habitats - how can we create a more fuel efficient transport system? Or how can we export the tech no these countries at a more reasonable rate?

    Overall we cannot talk about the “globe” as people don’t view the global situations in their day-to-day lives. This isn’t possible. Micromanagement appears to be a better way forward for how environments are managed and the best we can hope for is having a commonly global interest in preserving enough habitats to allow regrowth after the current, and ongoing, state of decline.

    Our current generations are simply too wasteful. WWII left people with hangovers from rationing that instilled good habits and appreciation ... I think such attitudes have all but left the western world and when I see people complaining about ‘poverty’ in the west they don’t seem to appreciate the extend of poverty and lack of freedom in other countries (which are making huge progress at the expense of the west - the tiny downturn experienced in western economies means hundreds of thousands of people around the globe have just benefited from you having to pay a few extra pennies in tax.

    In truth the world is changing so quickly I am unsure where we’ll be in 5, 10 or 20 years time. The major concern for me is how western countries deal with a depleted labour force and how quickly such technologies will spread to other countries - that impact could be moe devastating than anything. Hopefully the western world will create a workable model prior to other nations taking on mass automated labour. 5G is a concern - the impact such wide spread tech will have is unimaginable; including no need for drivers, farm workers and/or practically all distribution units looking more like amazon.com ... there has to be some kind of UBI as far as I can tell ... then again, maybe new job options will open up to people?
  • Tzeentch
    3.3k
    Why doesn't the "poor" farmer grow food for himself, if his fear is starvation? Because his fear is not starvation, he desires profit. One is so accustomed to seeing these people as victims that one foregoes the fact that they too are engaged in the pursuit of material wealth.

    One seems to suggest that the only alternative for low-income workers is starvation. This is naive and indicative of one's narrative driven by notions of victimhood. The real alternative is less wealth, but for many that option is unappealing. And thus they reap the costs and benefits of their own choices.
  • Deleted User
    0
    I don't think it's as simple as a desire for wealth, but sure. We should then apply that logic to developed countries

    GMOs and wild plants are their own genetic issue. We just need diversity and need to keep global genetic monopolies in check

    I'm not saying we need to farm industrially to feed everybody. Realistically we need to look at what won't change. We'll farm more/~ animals while organics and grass fed maybe grow and they cooperate perhaps. But eventually well need a compromise, we can't feed the whole world with animal protein like we do now, nor do we want the negatives of industrial ag. We need to find a way to have some animal protein in the right way, affecting consumers/demand will happen, and find a way to sustain the ecosystem overall. Human demand will clash with that and might be sorted out overall. Or maybe something catastrophic will happen?
  • Brett
    3k
    How to deal with the problem:Nasir Shuja

    I think you just continued to point out the problem. I might have missed it but I didn’t see a ‘how’.
  • Brett
    3k
    SadNasir Shuja

    Do you mean me?

    Then try it this way:

    Give me the problem, then give me the objective, then give me the strategy for reaching the objective.

    Just saying education, for instance, is neither. Give me specifics about the education and the results you expect.

    if we educate people correctly,Nasir Shuja

    Where's the 'how'?
  • Deleted User
    0
    No I meant the situation. The how is a bit complex for me to attempt right now
  • Brett
    3k


    Not just you, I would think.
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