• Gnostic Christian Bishop
    254
    TheMadFoolTheMadFool

    LOL.

    Religions say kill them. It will teach them how to love.

    You give value to that do you?

    Religions have institutionalized homophobia and misogyny and a denial of equality to better than half the planet.

    You go ahead and speak for it. I will not.

    Regards
    DL
  • TheMadFool
    3.2k
    Name me an alternative to religion that has a good side?
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    254
    Name me an alternative to religion that has a good side?TheMadFool

    Gnostic Christianity. That is why they used the inquisitions on us.

    They knew that our view of god was better and we had to die as they could not best our morals and ways of thinking.

    The same applies to Karaite Jews and Buddhism. We all put man above god where we belong, given that mankind has invented all the gods.

    You might be calling those I named religions, and they are mostly considered that, but I put all thinking systems under the title of ideologies, be they philosophies or theologies.

    Regards
    DL
  • TheMadFool
    3.2k
    Gnostic Christianity.Gnostic Christian Bishop


    What about an alternative to religion that isn't another religion?
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    254
    What about an alternative to religion that isn't another religion?TheMadFool

    Secularism as described in the French term laïcité.

    Freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion. It takes religion out of the public's face and thus eases tensions.

    I will assume you are not a Christian.

    Tell me, how would you feel if you were on a subway sitting across from a Christian with a little sign on his lapel that said, "Turn or burn" or "Jesus saves"?

    How do you think a Muslim would feel?

    Regards
    DL
  • whollyrolling
    408


    Inquisitions? What is this, the 12th century?

    Jesus said go out and tell the world, and his close circle of followers determined that they should march headlong into persecution, prison or death to propagate the religion. Stop talking about Christianity as though you have even the slightest idea what you're talking about. You can't use out of context references or ignorance of the fundamentals of a specific religion as a premise for a discussion about all world religions.

    Why don't you instead refer to instances of men being hauled off to prison because they refused to stop fervently proselytizing? Why don't you instead refer to where Jesus states that he is the only way to achieve salvation and that all other religions and their prophets are from the devil? Why don't you refer to statistics to demonstrate the popularity of the fundamentalism that you're implying exists within all religious minds? How many Christians openly identify as homophobic or misogynistic, or are you referring to the 10 people standing outside an abortion clinic or alongside a gay pride parade with picket signs?

    There are women and gays in positions of authority in churches. Why would you omit this information from your post?

    The US is the "least peaceful and law abiding nation on earth"? Have you lost your marbles?

    What percentage of these religious populations actually hurls beliefs forcefully and habitually at those from other religions, or at anyone?

    Where is the conflict, and what is the nature of the conflict? Are hordes of Christians fighting hordes of Buddhists in the streets of every city?

    How can you reconcile your proposed violation of fundamental human rights with the law and the constitution?

    Also, please reference global violent crime and terrorism statistics so that we can all have a gander at how anarchistic and violently out of control American citizens are by comparison to the rest of the world.

    This is supposed to be a philosophy forum.
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    254
    whollyrollingwhollyrolling

    You defend religions that are obviously and flagrantly homophobic and misogynous by getting a few example to the contrary and which I concede exist, just what a hypocrite does by not mentioning that they are just the few within the many.

    As to your other requests, asked in an uncouth way.

    Bite me.

    Regards
    DL
  • TheMadFool
    3.2k
    Secularism as described in the French term laïcité.

    Freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion. It takes religion out of the public's face and thus eases tensions.

    I will assume you are not a Christian.

    Tell me, how would you feel if you were on a subway sitting across from a Christian with a little sign on his lapel that said, "Turn or burn" or "Jesus saves"?

    How do you think a Muslim would feel?

    Regards
    DL
    Gnostic Christian Bishop

    Religion has its ills, I agree. It's exasperating to hear of people hurting and killing each other in the name of God. This is especially true now with Islamic extremism and all the violent reactions it's spawned.

    However, think of the other side of the coin. What keeps the peace in the world? What prevents wanton violence or evil if you prefer? Isn't it religion that keeps the leash on the evil that's present in all of us? I'm not claiming other alternatives like philosophy don't make people good. All I'm saying is for most people it's religion that keeps then on the right side of the law.
  • whollyrolling
    408


    I didn't defend a religion. You attacked religion with lies, I identified your dishonesty. The vast majority of religious people are not fundamentalists, which means there are billions of examples of people who have a lifestyle only moderately in touch with religion. There is nothing uncouth about calling someone on their ignorance and requesting evidence.

    It so happens that all the straws you're now grasping at are lies too. If you're going to initiate controversial topics, at least be honest and genuine, otherwise you're trolling.
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    254
    All I'm saying is for most people it's religion that keeps then on the right side of the law.TheMadFool

    If one needs to belong to a homophobic and misogynous religion and discriminate and denigrate women and gays and retard the progress of the rest of the world in their moral thinking, and refuse equality to all people, while continuing their lower levels of inquisitions and jihads, I do not feel it that the few benefits of religions are worth the greater harm that they do.

    If you think you should live by the Golden Rule, change the labels in this quote to women, minorities, gays or children being brainwashed by religions and it shows what we should be thinking and doing for each other.

    "First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." – Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)”

    Regards
    DL
  • andrewk
    2.1k
    Are you confident that Catholic schools never expel students in Canada? I went to Catholic schools in Australia and we had many students expelled, and not even for real problems like being disruptive. I have not read about schools in Canada but I have read of many other countries, and expulsion is always an option, except for in government schools. So that's where the expelled students end up.
  • Hanover
    4.5k
    Conversely, if we look at the Christian nation of the U.S., as an example; we see perhaps the least peaceful and law abiding nation on earth.Gnostic Christian Bishop

    Crime in the US is not significantly related to religiosity. To the extent your argument that public religious expression ought be suppressed rests on the empirically false claim that a significant amount of crime in the US arises from religious disagreement, your argument is invalid.

    Suppression of beliefs and of personal expression of those beliefs, religious or otherwise, so long as not infringing upon others, is antithetical to modern democracy and has caused serious rifts in French society. The largely non-religious founders of the US thankfully had the foresight to enshrine the right to practice one's religion in the Constitution because they saw first hand the oppression that arose from rreligious suppression by government.
  • Wayfarer
    7.4k
    One scholar I like is Bart Ehrman. He began as a fundamentalist and the more he learned of the bible the more he became an atheist.Gnostic Christian Bishop


    I’m not sure what to call myself. I suppose I lean toward “agnostic” rather than “atheist” simply because as a scholar and professional thinker I am, at the end of the day, more interested in “knowledge” than “faith.” Moreover, the term does seem to me to convey a greater sense of humility in the face of an incredibly awesome universe, about which I know so little. I happen to think that humility is a good thing in these circumstances. At the same time, I can understand why others may want to emphasize what they do not believe rather than what they do not know, and so call themselves atheist. (Why they are so incensed that I don’t follow suit, however, continues to be a mystery to me.) 1 — Bart Ehrman
  • whollyrolling
    408
    Is this a philosophy thread or a preach and spit venom thread?
  • TheMadFool
    3.2k
    If one needs to belong to a homophobic and misogynous religion and discriminate and denigrate women and gays and retard the progress of the rest of the world in their moral thinking, and refuse equality to all people, while continuing their lower levels of inquisitions and jihads, I do not feel it that the few benefits of religions are worth the greater harm that they do.

    If you think you should live by the Golden Rule, change the labels in this quote to women, minorities, gays or children being brainwashed by religions and it shows what we should be thinking and doing for each other.

    "First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." – Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)”
    Gnostic Christian Bishop

    I'm not saying you're wrong but I'm afraid there's no good alternative to religion given our present condition. I'm particularly concerned about the lack of thinking skills of the general populace (including myself of course) and taking away religious beliefs would add up to undermining the harmony in society even if such harmony is infected with tribalism, communalism, etc.
  • creativesoul
    5.2k
    Banning all public religious representations would increase the amount of hatred and violence coming from within the religious community.
    — creativesoul

    That is not the case where religions have banned atheism nor where Muslim countries have banned the apparel the O.P. speaks about.

    Is that your opinion/speculation or can you cite something with research and not just opinion?
    Gnostic Christian Bishop

    We're not talking about cases whether one religion bans another's representation. We're not talking about cases where atheism is banned. We're considering whether or not a ban on all religious representation would increase violence.

    Clearly violence against religions come almost entirely from other religions.

    You need research to reasonably conclude that a ban on all religious representation would increase violence within religious communities? What planet do you live on?

    No one else gives a fuck.
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    254
    Are you confident that Catholic schools never expel students in Canada?andrewk

    I know for a fact that expulsions do occur. The reasons would likely vary.
    I do not think it is a systematic culling of any kind though.
    I do have a link somewhere that did report a school selecting students, basically by social class, that happens a lot in the private school system and I am not surprised if some Catholic schools do it.
    That was not in Canada though if I recall correctly. It was in England.
    In overall terms of education, I do not care if our kids go to private, public or Catholic schools, as long as they get the best education we can afford them.
    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    254
    The largely non-religious founders of the US thankfully had the foresight to enshrine the right to practice one's religion in the Constitution because they saw first hand the oppression that arose from religious suppression by government.Hanover

    You kid. Right? That or you are deluded.
    Then, as now, there is basically a religious test for your lying politicians.
    I don't care how the religious sheeple believe.
    Secularism just says to get your beliefs out of the public square where they do not belong as they create hate and violence.
    Or hadn't you noticed?

    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    254
    (Why they are so incensed that I don’t follow suit, however, continues to be a mystery to me.) 1 — Bart Ehrman
    I like Bart as he is an honest researcher.
    He does not understand Gnostic Christianity much though but has Christianity and the bible pegged correctly as myth.

    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    254
    Is this a philosophy thread or a preach and spit venom thread?whollyrolling

    I am a feisty kind of guy who hates B. S. and the supernatural. Get used to me or best to ignore me.
    Whiner. Just kidding, this time.
    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    254
    I'm not saying you're wrong but I'm afraid there's no good alternative to religion given our present condition. I'm particularly concerned about the lack of thinking skills of the general populace (including myself of course) and taking away religious beliefs would add up to undermining the harmony in society even if such harmony is infected with tribalism, communalism, etc.TheMadFool

    I agree that the school system as well as our religious system want to create sheeple instead of intelligent thinkers. Sheeple are easier to fleece while thinkers are harder to manage because we demand better than what we have.

    Secularism does not effect beliefs. It effects removing expressions of beliefs in the public square, where it does not belong as it creates hate and violence. Religions are antithesis to the harmony you seek.

    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    254
    You need research to reasonably conclude that a ban on all religious representation would increase violence within religious communities? What planet do you live on?creativesoul

    Who where you reading. Not me as I never said that the above.
    I say that ridding ourselves of religious symbolism in the public space reduces hate and violence.

    Regards
    DL
  • ralfy
    42
    That might go against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
  • whollyrolling
    408


    For someone who claims to hate BS you certainly spew a lot of it though. You still haven't responded to my queries into you having no idea what you're talking about concerning religion and doubling down on false quotes and lies about those who disagree with you.

    You defend religions that are obviously and flagrantly homophobic and misogynous by getting a few example to the contrary and which I concede exist, just what a hypocrite does by not mentioning that they are just the few within the many.

    As to your other requests, asked in an uncouth way.
    Gnostic Christian Bishop

    That or you are deluded.
    Then, as now, there is basically a religious test for your lying politicians.
    I don't care how the religious sheeple believe.
    Secularism just says to get your beliefs out of the public square where they do not belong as they create hate and violence.
    Or hadn't you noticed?
    Gnostic Christian Bishop

    LOL.

    Religions say kill them. It will teach them how to love.

    You give value to that do you?

    Religions have institutionalized homophobia and misogyny and a denial of equality to better than half the planet.

    You go ahead and speak for it. I will not.
    Gnostic Christian Bishop

    Gnostic Christianity. That is why they used the inquisitions on us.

    They knew that our view of god was better and we had to die as they could not best our morals and ways of thinking.
    Gnostic Christian Bishop

    Listen to yourself. Preach. Lie. Mock. Lie. Preach some more. Perhaps you should present even a shred of philosophy or substantiation that isn't about either yourself or your religion.
  • andrewk
    2.1k
    I know for a fact that expulsions do occur. The reasons would likely vary.
    I do not think it is a systematic culling of any kind though.
    Gnostic Christian Bishop
    Whether it is systematic is irrelevant. If the Catholic system, or any private school, expels disruptive students, who then end up in the public system, then of course the task for the public system is more difficult. Any 'comparison' of efficiency that fails to take that into account is meaningless.

    Yet private schools continue to trot out bogus statistics showing their 'efficiency', based on such misleading measures.
  • GrreAccepted Answer
    61


    Ah, well in Canada, you have to be "Catholic" to go to Catholic public school (until high school). I personally never experienced the curriculum first hand, though I do know that they teach other classes as well like the trades/second language ect. but my argument is, there should be more of that not less, to make room for all the ~religion~.
    Also, Catholicism is a reminiscence of both Canada and Australia's colonial history-that being the forced spread of and indoctrinating of faith and dogma, not only unwillingly to the subjugated and exterminated Indigenous populations, but continuing on, today. Makes me rather ill at the thought to be completely fair.

    Also, ethics without the religious aspect, ie. secular ethic theories are much more lasting and effective then leaning on a crutch of 'faith' and following a list of set dogma, that is not only hypocritical and contradictory due to the Catholic church's long and bloody/violent/terrible/racist/sexist/homophobic history, but pathetic. If we teach people that they should do the right thing so that 'God' loves them (positive punishment) or so that 'God' doesn't send them to Hell (negative punishment) then really, they are doing the right thing for some kind of selfish reason, kinda defeats the whole 'do the right thing' mantra when you scare-tactic people into it under duress. But now we're getting into ethics, which is a subject I don't claim to have any reign over.


    I agree-religion has its place to be learned, in history (studying the gross misuses of power and ideology) and in mythology/stories-but it must be taught as fiction. It's true that most people who do go to Catholic school come out very anti-god ect. which is good, but these people were still forced to prey and make signage to a fictional story that they do not know or believe in, i just do not see how that inspires authenticity-but then again religion is meant to teach complicity, obedience, and uncritical thinking.
  • Grre
    61

    I too, am in general very concerned for the thinking skills of the general population. Especially my generation. Religion may be less to blame though (no one my age, who I know, is religious) as celebrity culture ect.
  • Grre
    61


    There are women and gays in positions of authority in churches. Why would you omit this information from your post?

    Easily-surely there are more 'political correct' movements occurring that allow for LGBTQ+ people in churches, great! But why were they ever banned in the first place? How can anyone claim that religion is 'peaceful' when the two great religions of the world are predicated on hate, marginalization, discrimination, a millennial of wars, and provide the narratives in support of ecological instrumentalism, colonialization, and death?
    Also, religion becomes deeply embedded in culture in places where public/religion are not firmly divided, as per the OP's original point. Exampe; the Middle East-I would have to wear a Burqa or other form of head wear, not because I 'believe freely' (as some Libtards would say) in some bullshit sexist purity myth meant to control my bodily autonomy and invalidate my existence as an individual and free being, but because that is a cultural expectation...otherwise in many places I could be killed.

    The US is the "least peaceful and law abiding nation on earth"? Have you lost your marbles?
    A thousand years from now I guarantee that someone will look back and be incredibly shocked at how the US managed to maintain the image and reputation of one of the most wealthiest, prosperous, and innovative places in human history, yet at the same time keep such a majority of their population in poverty, oppression, or otherwise deteriorating circumstances. By no means in the US Saudia Arabia, but in many, perhaps even more dangerous ways-there are real issues in American society.

    What percentage of these religious populations actually hurls beliefs forcefully and habitually at those from other religions, or at anyone?
    As per (I believe) the OPs original point, any kind of religious signage is a form of propaganda and thus serves the purpose of propaganda, to propagate. There are no exact statistics though. My guess, a lot.

    Where is the conflict, and what is the nature of the conflict? Are hordes of Christians fighting hordes of Buddhists in the streets of every city?
    You're straw-manning, also, Buddhism is a decentralized spiritual activity, not a centralized organized religion. Buddhists wouldn't be organized to fight anyone FYI.
    Also you'd have to be willfully ignorant or blind to not see the 'conflict' evident in Christianity vs. Islam, Christianity vs. women's rights, ect.

    How can you reconcile your proposed violation of fundamental human rights with the law and the constitution?
    Why is religion a human right?

    Also, please reference global violent crime and terrorism statistics so that we can all have a gander at how anarchistic and violently out of control American citizens are by comparison to the rest of the world.

    This is supposed to be a philosophy forum.

    Since you point out so explicitly that this is a philosophy forum, please be aware of your use of 'anarchistic' since, Anarchism is also a school of political and philosophical thought with a long and exemplary history. The concept of anarchistic as synonymous with out of control is one that lay-people succumb to. This is a philosophy forum.
  • whollyrolling
    408


    I didn't claim that all religions or any specific religion was inherently peaceful. I'm not particularly fond of religion. Most religion has inevitably led to conflict. Most religion has been justification for war and has contained principles that we in modern Western life find appalling. But most religions were not created in modern times, they were created in times when all the things you've mentioned above were aspects of everyday life for all humans. The only thing I'm defending or promoting in any way is a person's right to practice any religion that doesn't come into direct conflict with freedom and liberty.

    A thousand years from now, people will look back and see a bunch of nonsense, but I don't think anyone will be shocked.

    America isn't perfect, and I haven't claimed it to be, but it's the best system currently available.

    As far as propagation, no one's conducting an "inquisition" in America.

    Yes, there have been wars fought by Buddhists, but that wasn't my point. My point was to illustrate the absurdity of the OP's claims. Where is the "straw man" argument? I asked a few questions. For the OP to have mentioned "inquisition", he seems to be implying that a religious state is terrorizing the masses and torturing or killing anyone who opposes state religious doctrine.

    To which conflict are you referring when you say "Christianity vs. Islam", and in what context, and where, and how is it being incited and by whom? And where is this Christian "war on women"?

    Religion is a right because people are allowed to have thoughts and feelings. To remove the right to practice religion is to disallow thoughts and feelings. It is to disallow the spoken and written word. Tell me who gets to decide for all people what they should think and feel and where that road ends.

    Politics falls within the realm of philosophy, as does religion. I'm not saying these things shouldn't be addressed philosophically. I'm saying that the OP isn't addressing them philosophically.

    I didn't claim anarchism was any specific thing, but certain forms of it can be simplified to total individual autonomy. My point was not how I view anarchism but how the OP views Western society.

    Since there was no philosophical position by the OP, I can't possibly be "straw manning" anything. I'm seeking clarification on some of things mentioned and presenting that other things mentioned are absurd. I'm pointing out that proselytization and blatant dishonesty shouldn't be equated with philosophy.

    You seem to be making assumptions about me, misconstruing my comments and arguing points that I never claimed or agreed or disagreed with in the first place.
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    254
    That might go against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.ralfy

    The one that no one has signed up to and is mostly ignored even by the free world?

    I don't think that it was ever intended to negate the freedom from religion for non-theists, but they sure tried to end the freedom of thought and criticism of the more vile religious ideologies.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UTdKxCz2FIQ

    Regards
    DL
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