• Devans99
    2.7k
    How close is traditional religion in determining the attributes of God? All sorts of religions make all sorts of seemingly wild claims. To separate the chaff from the wheat, I’ve listed some of the most common claims below and given a logical analysis where possible. Note this is not a 'does God exist?' post, God is assumed to exist for the purposes of discussion.

    1. Omnipresent - NO

    Parts of the universe are moving apart from each other at faster than the speed of light. This means they are casually disconnected from each other (can have no effect on each other - not in each other’s future light cones). To class as one being, all parts of the being must be causally connected, so God cannot be omnipresent. This rules out pantheism too.

    2. Infinite - NO

    Infinite implies unmeasurable. But a being can always measure itself - it is called self-awareness. So God cannot be infinite.

    3. Omnipotent - NO

    Could God create a copy of himself? If he did create a copy of himself, he would no longer be omni-potent, so we can conclude God is effectively not omni-potent.

    4. Omniscient - NO

    To know everything about one’s self requires memory storage larger than one’s self so it is not possible to know everything even about one’s self. For example, say a particle has 4 attributes (mass, charge, position, momentum) then (at least) 4 analog bits (=4 particles) are required to encode that knowledge.

    5. Omnibenevolent - NO

    This requires infallibility which in turn requires perfect information (omniscience) before making decisions.

    6. Immutable - MAYBE

    From the perspective of eternalism, God could be seen as static and unchanging - past, present, future, God has ‘already’ performed all possible actions, so he can be unchanging.

    From the perspective of presentism, how can God be static and still effect change? Impossible.

    7. Eternal Outside of Time - YES

    God cannot be eternal in time (he would have no start, no coming into being). God, if he exists, can only be eternal outside of time - timeless. A timeless first cause is the only way to avoid an infinite regress of time stretching back forever (which is impossible).

    8. Non-material / Extra Dimensional - MAYBE

    Spacetime started 14 billion years ago. The first cause must be from beyond spacetime. We know the first cause cannot exist in any sort of time (because that leads to an infinite regress). A key question is, can space exist without time? IE can 3D exist without the 4th dimension? A similar question is can 2D exist without the 3rd dimension? If length is 0, then width and breath disappear also. So space cannot exist without time (in our universe anyway). So the first cause might be ‘spaceless’ too. That might mean the first cause is not subject to the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

    A non-material or extra dimensional first cause would be able to cause the Big Bang without destroying itself.

    9. Transcendent / Immanent - MAYBE

    Transcendence is ‘being outside nature’, immanence is ‘being in nature’. God created spacetime so he is from outside nature. Can God get all or part of himself into nature? Tricky question without being able to tie down the nature of God.

    10. Male - NO

    Referring to God as ‘Him’ is the judaic tradition. But of course ‘he’ cannot be the product of bisexual reproduction. So Jesus is God’s son only in an allegorical sense.



    So overall, the picture painted of God by most conventional religion seems a long way off the mark. I am not sure why they invented all these superlative attributes for God? Perhaps they thought they were praising God by doing so? Whatever the case, they seem to have left theology with the task of justifying the impossible (no wonder it can get so complicated).
  • I like sushi
    4.3k
    Supratemporal and supernatural are not really the same thing. What is meant by “supratemporal” is understood in abstract terms, but “supernatural” isn’t. If we can understand the term “supernatural” then it is, by definition, NOT supernatural because how is it we’re able to talk of it?

    This is the distinction set out by Kantian Noumenon. Noumenon can only ever be known in the “negative sense” and to propose noumenon in the “positive sense” is an item of the “negative sense”.

    In more simplistic linguistic terms; if I cannot know something (in the purest meaning of ‘not knowing’) then I cannot know that I don’t know it. If I do not know something that could come to know, then once it is known to me I cannot not know it whilst knowing it - yet I am aware of the historical me NOT knowing it only after it is brought into my sphere of knowing.

    What can and cannot be brought into our sphere of knowing either doesn’t exist ever or will never exist. All manners in which the “supernatural” is claimed, as far as I’ve seen, is in reference to phenomenon - which is by definition NOT supernatural, therefore the term is part of a word game where the claimant declares knowledge of what they don’t/can’t know. It is a fallacy of language.
  • Devans99
    2.7k
    Supratemporal and supernatural are not really the same thingI like sushi

    Supratemporal is timeless. There is a little about it in relativity: photons are timeless, but really we have no idea how this could work. Which is a pity because this attribute seems to be logically required.

    In more simplistic linguistic terms; if I cannot know something (in the purest meaning of ‘not knowing’) then I cannot know that I don’t know it.I like sushi

    I'm a little confused: I cannot know all the digits of π yet I know that I cannot know? Can you give an example?

    All manners in which the “supernatural” is claimed, as far as I’ve seen, is in reference to phenomenon - which is by definition NOT supernatural, therefore the term is part of a word game where the claimant declares knowledge of what they don’t/can’t know. It is a fallacy of languageI like sushi

    Agreed, I personally use a definition of supernatural as beyond nature; IE beyond spacetime.
  • PossibleAaran
    243
    3. Omnipotent - NO

    Could God create a copy of himself? If he did create a copy of himself, he would no longer be omni-potent, so we can conclude God is effectively not omni-potent.
    Devans99

    I don’t think this is a valid argument. It is true that if God did create a copy of himself then there would exist a being of equal power to him. If being omnipotent requires being the most powerful existing being then it follows that God would no longer be omnipotent after [\i] having created a copy. But this says nothing about whether he is omnipotent before creating the copy. He might well be omnipotent at that time. (This is pretty much Swinburne’s answer to similar problems about omnipotence).

    PA
  • Devans99
    2.7k
    If being omnipotent requires being the most powerful existing being then it follows that God would no longer be omnipotent after [\i] having created a copy. But this says nothing about whether he is omnipotent before creating the copy. He might well be omnipotent at that time.PossibleAaran

    A fair point. I suppose I could resort to the light cone argument but then effecting something outside your light cone is impossible and omnipotent usually excludes achieving the impossible. I could also say that God could not create anything infinite but again that is generally impossible so not really in the spirit of the post. If God was immutable, it would be impossible for him to change himself... still the same problem.

    So there is the classic argument 'could God create a stone so heavy he could not lift it?':

    "A common response from Christian philosophers, such as Norman Geisler or William Lane Craig, is that the paradox assumes a wrong definition of omnipotence. Omnipotence, they say, does not mean that God can do anything at all but, rather, that he can do anything that's possible according to his nature. The distinction is important. God cannot perform logical absurdities; he cannot, for instance, make 1+1=3. Likewise, God cannot make a being greater than himself because he is, by definition, the greatest possible being. God is limited in his actions to his nature. The Bible supports this, they assert, in passages such as Hebrews 6:18, which says it is "impossible for God to lie.""

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox

    Looks like I should have defined Omnipotence in the OP.
  • I like sushi
    4.3k
    Agreed, I personally use a definition of supernatural as beyond nature; IE beyond spacetime. — Devans99

    That’s where we differ. I don’t assume ‘anything’ as supernatural. Beyond ST doesn’t mean supernatural to me nor would it to astrophysicists. Beyond our immediate scope? Certainly.
  • Devans99
    2.7k
    Different dictionaries have different definitions of supernatural. Here is one:

    Definition of supernatural
    (1) : of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe
    especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
    (2a) : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature
    (b) : attributed to an invisible agent (such as a ghost or spirit)


    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/supernatural

    So I am using the word in the sense of (1) above. That appears to be the only scientific related usage of the word.

    (2a) is also similar - transcending the laws of nature

    (b) I think this is the most common usage of the word. Correct to say we cannot make assumption about such.

    Supernatural comes from the Latin word supernaturalis, meaning beyond nature.
  • I like sushi
    4.3k
    Supernatural therefore means zilch. If we come to observe it - directly or indirectly - it is definition no longer “supernatural”.
  • whollyrolling
    551


    It's strange that you would attempt to counter a valid argument by validating it.

    If someone points to a house and says "that's a house", would you then say "yes, it's a tree, but it's also a dolphin"?
  • Devans99
    2.7k
    I don't follow you. Which of the 10 arguments are you referring to?
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Parts of the universe are moving apart from each other at faster than the speed of light.Devans99

    First, if this is the case, the speed of light is not actually a (universal) speed limit.
  • Devans99
    2.7k
    First, if this is the case, the speed of light is not actually a (universal) speed limit.Terrapin Station

    It's due to the very fabric of space expanding. It's likened to a balloon inflating. So nothing breaks the speed of light limit but things on the opposite side of the universe are moving apart faster than light.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    So nothing breaks the speed of light limit but things on the opposite side of the universe are moving apart faster than light.Devans99

    If nothing breaks the speed of light limit then nothing is moving apart faster than the speed of light. If something is moving apart faster than the speed of light, then something breaks the speed of light limit. We can't have it both ways. It's a simple contradiction.
  • Devans99
    2.7k
    If nothing breaks the speed of light limit then nothing is moving apart faster than the speed of light. If something is moving apart faster than the speed of light, then something breaks the speed of light limit. We can't have it both ways. It's a simple contradiction.Terrapin Station

    It's not the galaxies that are moving; it is the metric of space expanding - it's as if new space is appearing between the galaxies. I'm no expert, here is what Wikipedia says:

    "The expansion of the universe is the increase of the distance between two distant parts of the universe with time. It is an intrinsic expansion whereby the scale of space itself changes. The universe does not expand "into" anything and does not require space to exist "outside" it. Technically, neither space nor objects in space move. Instead it is the metric governing the size and geometry of spacetime itself that changes in scale. Although light and objects within spacetime cannot travel faster than the speed of light, this limitation does not restrict the metric itself. To an observer it appears that space is expanding and all but the nearest galaxies are receding into the distance."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_of_the_universe
  • whollyrolling
    551


    The one I highlighted, if you click on the link of your name, it'll take you to it.
  • Devans99
    2.7k
    Still do not get your point I'm afraid.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    It's not the galaxies that are moving; it is the metric of space expandingDevans99

    Is it moving faster than the speed of light? If so, then something can move faster than the speed of light, and the speed of light isn't actually a universal speed limit.

    (which isn't to mention the incoherence of positing "the metric of space" as something that exists abstractly somehow)
  • Devans99
    2.7k
    Imagine a rubber band with two dots on it (=galaxies). When you stretch the band, the dots/galaxies do not move (relative to their immediate surroundings) but the distance in-between them increases.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Imagine a rubber band with two dots on it (=galaxies). When you stretch the band, the dots/galaxies do not move (relative to their immediate surroundings) but the distance in-between them increases.Devans99

    Either something --some part of the rubber band, say, is moving faster than the speed of light or it isn't.

    Basically, we're either positing something--some existent, that's moving faster than the speed of light or we're not. Whatever we're focusing on re motion. Again, we can't have it both ways.
  • Devans99
    2.7k
    Nothing is moving faster than the speed of light. The dots/galaxies do not move at all - space expands in-between.

    If I stretch these dots out (by stretching a pretend rubber band that they are inscribed upon):
    ..____ ..
    To:
    .._________________________..
    The closely neighbouring dots are still close to each other - they not moved. But the distance between the two pairs of dots has increased dramatically.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Nothing is moving faster than the speed of light.Devans99

    Then we can't say that parts of the universe are moving apart from each other at faster than the speed of light, lol.

    It's ridiculous how simple this is.
  • Devans99
    2.7k
    Then we can't say that parts of the universe are moving apart from each other at faster than the speed of light, lol.Terrapin Station

    OK. I'm not sure how to describe it. Parts of the universe are being stretched apart at FTL maybe?
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Parts of the universe are being stretched apart at FTL maybe?Devans99

    Which would be moving faster than the speed of light. Unless we're somehow trying to argue that "stretching" isn't "moving"?
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    It's pretty simple, really. If there's evidence that something in the universe is moving faster than the speed of light (relative to something else, of course, but all motion is relative), then the speed of light isn't actually a universal speed limit. That idea is wrong.

    If it's instead a matter of some mathematical theory suggesting that things would move faster than the speed of light, then either that theory or the theory that nothing can move faster than the speed of light is wrong.
  • Devans99
    2.7k


    - What is not clear about the rubber band analogy? The dots do not move, the band stretches
    - You are going against what all of the astronomers tell us.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    the band stretchesDevans99

    Isn't stretching moving?

    You are going against what all of the astronomers tell us.Devans99

    You don't go with what someone tells you non-critically. Anyone can say something wrong. You need to critically assess anything anyone tries to sell you.
  • Devans99
    2.7k
    Isn't stretching moving?Terrapin Station

    The medium (space) is stretching. The things in the medium (the galaxies) are not moving.

    Imagine inflating a ballon full of floating particles. The particles themselves don't move - but new air adds to the space between the particles.

    I don't have the knowledge of general relativity needed for this. Its explained a bit more here:

    "The expansion of the universe causes distant galaxies to recede from us faster than the speed of light, if proper distance and cosmological time are used to calculate the speeds of these galaxies. However, in general relativity, velocity is a local notion, so velocity calculated using comoving coordinates does not have any simple relation to velocity calculated locally. (See Comoving and proper distances for a discussion of different notions of 'velocity' in cosmology.) Rules that apply to relative velocities in special relativity, such as the rule that relative velocities cannot increase past the speed of light, do not apply to relative velocities in comoving coordinates, which are often described in terms of the "expansion of space" between galaxies"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light#Universal_expansion

    You don't go with what someone tells you non-critically. Anyone can say something wrong.Terrapin Station

    Agreed. Wish people would be more critical of established knowledge - we know for a fact some of it will be wrong.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    The medium (space) is stretching. The things in the medium (the galaxies) are not moving.Devans99

    What I asked is if stretching is moving
  • Devans99
    2.7k
    If you are standing on a stretching road, you are not moving relative to your surroundings.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k


    What does that have to do with whether stretching is moving?
  • Devans99
    2.7k
    Stretching I am using as an analogy. Inflating is the usual analogy. New space is appearing between the galaxies - nothing is moving.
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