• Weeknd
    18
    I have a pet theory that i'd like to discuss here.

    1. Panpsychism is true.

    2. All sufficiently evolved species have a predisposition to act in self interest. This is known as psychological egoism.

    3. Even though we see acts of altruism and sacrifice, one can argue that it's ultimately for one's own contentment/ satisfaction or ego. They're still doing these things for their own self, in a way. So I'd say psychological egoism is trivially true . Note that this tendency does NOT imply all acts of kindness are worthless.

    4. Psychological egoism is what drives us to do pleasurable activities, basically anything that makes us happy and avoid pain, includes will to suffer in the short term if it means the pleasure felt afterwards more than offsets the pain.

    5. But this tendency has no real advantage from an evolutionary perspective. Evolution is only concerned with the ability to pass on your genes, biological fitness, survival etc.

    6. Sure, most activities that are pleasurable (good food, winning something, sex, music, exercise etc) are also absolutely necessary for survival, but there are a lots of things too, which are really pleasurable, but offer no real advantage to the survival of the individual's species in terms of evolution.

    7. All activities that have the feel-good factor are not necessarily activities that are beneficial to one's evolutionary fitness. But organisms keep doing them anyways.

    8. From (7), it follows that organisms have had this tendency to pursue pleasurable activities and minimise pain even before these activities gave them evolutionary advantages.

    9. Organisms, acting in their self interests, were simply pursuing activities that were euphoric without any regards to one's fitness, passing of their genes and their species' survival. Species for which these activities aligned with the activities beneficial for their survival were successful. We may also imagine that millions of years of mutations/ selective elimination of genes turned these activities necessary for survival more intense (including pain and punishment, intense pain=more incentive to do/avoid something) , so organisms adhere to these rules strictly, thus improving their efficiency.

    10. From all of this we can deduce that evolution cannot offer an explanation to why species would turn psychologically egoistic, evolution itself assumes the predisposition of organisms to behave egotistically, and uses this fact to eliminate (or propagate) individuals from a gene pool.

    11. In other words, species are successful if their acts of self interest align with the interests of their group's as well as their own survival, and fail if their acts of self interest don't coincide with their group's survival (and their own, to some extent). Nothing wrong this, but what evolution doesn't tell us is why, in the first place, organisms are acting in self interest.

    12. My guess is that organisms are intrinsically egoist, as a micro quality derived from the panpsychist "stuff" itself.

    13. The "Arrow B" in this article is tangential to what I mean in (12).

    14. The problem is, how in the first place could the 'physical stuff' have (read primitive form of the CNS) begun to learn what states of qualia its 'pansychist stuff' is in?

    To avoid misunderstanding , I'll rephrase (14) in clearer language.

    Your brain(the physical) knows what a certain experience feels like, if its a positive or negative one, and takes an action either to do it again or not, depending on whether the qualia was positive or negative, so there's a definitive physical influence caused by the panpsychistic substance. But how could these two things, the brain and the substance, possibly learn to communicate, so the brain can favour activities leading to positive qualia over those leading to negative qualia?
  • Barry Etheridge
    349
    1. Panpsychism is true.Weeknd

    No it isn't. I guess that'\s the end of that then!
  • Wayfarer
    20.7k
    how in the first place could the 'physical stuff' have (read primitive form of the CNS) begun to learn what states of qualia its 'pansychist stuff' is in? — Weeknd

    I think you're seeking resolution to two or maybe three difficult and related issues, one, 'why altruism', if the evolutionary processes are entirely driven by the Darwinian 'war, shortage and strife'; and second, how is it that inert matter became able to differentiate sensations in the first place.

    I think the underlying problem is that, in common with a great many people nowadays, you're asking a biological theory to answer a philosophical question for which it is neither suited nor intended. So it's typical of 'neo-darwinian reasoning' which believes that evolutionary biology is literally a 'theory of everything', when it comes to living things.

    And I think that tendency is actually a product of the historical circumstances in which it originated, namely, the abandonment of religion for science, and ergo the substitution of what is seen to be a scientific account in place of the superseded religious view of creation.

    So such a view has to account for some basic facts of human existence which have hitherto been traditionally the domain of religion, philosophy or metaphysics. it does this by trying to frame the issues in terms which are apparently amenable to a scientific analysis.

    Panpsychism does this in its own way as well, by seeking to define 'mind' as something that can be understood as an attribute or latency within matter itself. It seems like a kind of sleight-of-hand way to restore dualism. I think there are other ways to recognize the primacy of consciousness other than by objectifying it in this way.

    But in respect of such large questions as these, I think reductionist efforts are usually doomed to fail, in trying to explain ethical and metaphysical questions in scientific terms.

    That is a very high-level and general response but I can provide some further reading along these lines if there is interest.
  • Weeknd
    18
    But in any case, inert matter needed to able to differentiate sensations. It simply couldn't have been the case that activities that produce positive inner experiences are just linked to survival randomly
  • Weeknd
    18
    And, there are only two ways to explain consciousness IMO. Panpsychism or emergentism. Emergentism has bigger problems
  • Wayfarer
    20.7k
    I think it is widely recognized that evolutionary biology doesn't actually explain how life began or consciousness first emerged (which might or might not amount to the same thing). For a cogent analysis, have a look at Thomas Nagel's review of Richard Dawkin's book, The God Delusion, especially the section beginning with 'All explanations come to an end somewhere'.
  • Weeknd
    18
    Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying in the OP. Evolution also doesn't explain this predisposition of organisms to act in self interest. If you had to hazard a guess, where do you think this might've come from?
  • Weeknd
    18
    And congratulations on your 600th post here X-)
  • Weeknd
    18
    ah. Just realized you don't get notificationsin this forum unless you're tagged.
  • Wayfarer
    20.7k
    True! But in any case:

    'Even though we see acts of altruism and sacrifice, one can argue that it's ultimately for one's own contentment/ satisfaction or ego. They're still doing these things for their own self, in a way.'

    You can argue it, but I don't think it's true. There are genuinely selfless acts, and altruism is a real attribute, it's not simply egotism in disguise, nor does it fit very neatly into evolutionary theory, as Darwin himself recognised (although there's been a lot of work done on it since.)
  • Moliere
    4k
    3. Even though we see acts of altruism and sacrifice, one can argue that it's ultimately for one's own contentment/ satisfaction or ego. They're still doing these things for their own self, in a way. So I'd say psychological egoism is trivially true . Note that this tendency does NOT imply all acts of kindness are worthless.Weeknd

    I think this is a fallacious form of reasoning. I say that it's fallacious because when you perform the same sort of argument, but for opposing conclusions, it works just as well.

    Consider:

    "even though we are self-interested and seek pleasure and avoid pain for ourselves, one can argue that it's ultimately for altruistic motives. They are still doing these things for the good of the species, in a way. So I'd say that psychological altruism is trivially true. Note that this tendency does NOT imply that all acts of selfishness are praiseworthy"

    Where is the argument in there? Aren't you just restating the case throughout by reinterpreting the counter-example as, at bottom, in support of your idea?

    8. From (7), it follows that organisms have had this tendency to pursue pleasurable activities and minimise pain even before these activities gave them evolutionary advantages.Weeknd

    I don't think this follows from 7. I would say that you're adding a dimension of time, for one, and that activities were pleasurable prior to them influencing fitness, for two. While it is true that pleasure does not lead to evolutionary fitness, per se, and that those individuals who pursue self-interest along the lines of pleasure will seek out pleasure regardless of its impact on the species ability to survive, that does not then imply that the activities which we find pleasurable now -- and lets say, for the sake of argument, that these activities now do contribute to evolutionary fitness -- were activities which contributed to evolutionary fitness prior to them being pleasurable.

    One could see, in light of the belief that our psychologies are a product of our biology, the belief following that as soon as an activity makes the species evolutionarily fit then our psychologies will follow along and make said activity pleasurable.



    I'd note here that I don't believe biology implies psychology. There's an influence, but the inference from biological fact to psychological fact is a poor one in all the cases I've seen so far.
  • Weeknd
    18
    I don't know, man. I've only ever seen people arguing over the existence/non existence of altruism use arguments that are riddled with biases and objectively inapplicable.

    However, in spite of how "ugly" I find the egoist position, I've seen absolutely no good counter arguments, and any example of altruism can be explained away by an egoist as a counter example. This is what forced me into my current position.

    I would be more than glad if you (or anyone else) can change my view :D
  • Weeknd
    18
    IMO a good reason for the illusion of altruism is the innate human desire for socialization and companionship, which were most definitely necessary for survival as well as satisfaction earlier but arguably are somewhat less necessary nowadays, so we now "see", due to self reliance and isolationism, that what we used to call altruism were just means of fulfillment of one's own desires, securities and moral contentment.
  • wuliheron
    440
    A mathematical examination of the Theory of Evolution concluded its about staying two punch lines ahead of the competition, while another study discovered that without generosity evolutionary change is impossible. Its two steps forward and one back and my own theory is that the causal view of evolution is simply too limited because evolution is actually about how creative a species becomes. Darwin insisted evolution is not about survival of the fittest, but the most adaptable. However, that can be rephrased in less stuffy terms as the popular joke that, "Sex is never about survival of the fittest, but the most creative."

    This perspective is also supported by Adrian Bejan's "Constructal Theory" proposed as an amendment to the second law of thermodynamics, which notes that any flow, such as a series of rivers and streams, must either adapt to efficiently accommodate any subsequent flow or be replaced altogether. Evolution can therefore be viewed as sharing our personal truth with subsequent generations and those who are more altruistic tend to thrive or endure longer as well as sharing their genes more with future generations. This was confirmed by a mathematical examination of evolution that showed that, for primitive tribal people at least, the odds of their altruism supporting someone related to them or capable of helping them in return or their own future generations were high enough to make it worth taking chances.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    If you're so altruistic that you give all your food, and starve yourself to death in order to feed people who are poor, then your genes will not survive. Altruism taken to the extreme is a vice. "Love your neighbour as yourself" - not more.
  • wuliheron
    440


    As I said, the mathematics indicate its about staying two punch lines ahead of the competition, yet it also requires being generous. If everybody around you is generous then you get situations such as African tribes who had to learn the hard way to teach their children not to trust everyone because slavers found they could easily convince them to follow them anywhere because they were so trusting. The issue is not merely how to use your heart, but also your head.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    Sure, I never disputed that.
  • wuliheron
    440
    I was agreeing with you that it requires brains and merely adding that it also requires heart.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    Yes I know - I agree
  • mcdoodle
    1.1k
    For me the theory of evolution is about populations, not individuals, and so all this theorising about the relationship between egoism and evolution is beside the point, although it's a handy mythology if your politics happens to favour the supposed enlightenment of enlightened self-interest.
  • Wayfarer
    20.7k
    I would be more than glad if you (or anyone else) can change my view. — weeknd

    No you wouldn't. If you wanted to see it another way you wouldn't need someone else to persuade you.
  • intrapersona
    579
    6. Sure, most activities that are pleasurable (good food, winning something, sex, music, exercise etc) are also absolutely necessary for survival, but there are a lots of things too, which are really pleasurable, but offer no real advantage to the survival of the individual's species in terms of evolution.

    7. All activities that have the feel-good factor are not necessarily activities that are beneficial to one's evolutionary fitness. But organisms keep doing them anyways.
    Weeknd

    They are the same both 6&7

    evolution itself assumes the predisposition of organisms to behave egotistically, and uses this fact to eliminate (or propagate) individuals from a gene pool.Weeknd

    That sounds really true. I had this problem on the other forum that crashed. I was flamed for using evolution as a term for an entity. They would have said something like "evolution doesn't assume anything". You can read it here: http://forums.philosophyforums.com/threads/does-sperm-donation-win-at-evolution-76235.html

    My guess is that organisms are intrinsically egoist, as a micro quality derived from the panpsychist "stuff" itself.Weeknd

    Why would pansychism derive egoist organisms? It would be more intuitive to think the opposite, that all organisms are one and therefor have no need to serve a segregated and individualized egoist motive.
  • intrapersona
    579
    I think there are other ways to recognize the primacy of consciousness other than by objectifying it in this way.Wayfarer

    such as? are you seriously saying that you know a way that can better rectify the problem of consciousness than panpsychism yet still keep a subjective/objective or purely subjective dichotomy in place?
  • intrapersona
    579
    I think reductionist efforts are usually doomed to fail, in trying to explain ethical and metaphysical questions in scientific terms.Wayfarer

    What is the alternative?
  • Wayfarer
    20.7k
    Yes, but it's a difficult idea, and it's not an argument from the Western philosophical tradition, but from Vedanta.

    I think reductionist efforts are usually doomed to fail, in trying to explain ethical and metaphysical questions in scientific terms. — Wayfarer

    'Reductionism' is generally the attempt to reduce something to simpler parts or components. Evolutionary reductionism is generally the attempt to explain or understand human nature in purely Darwinian terms. As science is often reductionist, generally, then Darwinian reductionism is actually very prevalent in modern secular culture, actually I think it is the de facto attitude of what I call 'the secular intelligentsia', by which I mean, the professors of most faculties of the humanities in Western universities.
  • intrapersona
    579
    Inert matter needed to able to differentiate sensations. It simply couldn't have been the case that activities that produce positive inner experiences are just linked to survival randomlyWeeknd

    Let me just clarify, do you mean inert matter as rocks and wind? Because they have no imperative to do anything. Or do you mean things like trees and algae? Because they are purely responsive to what is best for survival.

    It seems "positive experience" is hard wired in to every single living thing on earth. For trees, the sunlight is positive experience because it provides energy. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? But you are the one talking about inert matter needing to have "positive inner experiences".
  • intrapersona
    579


    Yes but you quoted yourself. I asked what is the alternative to reductionism?
  • intrapersona
    579
    secular intelligentsia'Wayfarer

    lol, more like self-entitled, pompous nobodies

    "is a social class of people engaged in complex mental labor aimed at guiding or critiquing, or otherwise playing a leadership role in shaping a society's culture and politics."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligentsia
  • Wayfarer
    20.7k
    I amended that attribution.

    Alternatives to reductionism, in the case of the question in this thread, would be to consider the topic in terms of moral philosophy rather than in terms of what can be explained by evolutionary theory.
  • intrapersona
    579
    The OP is setting out to prove that we and all other organisms are intrinsically egoist because we are derived from the panpsychist "stuff".

    It fails to do that... nevertheless, explaining why we are intrinsically egoist via a moral philosophy helps no better, especially not improving whether panpsychism is anymore valid.

    I must concede though I am at a loss to find out how you would explain the egoism of all organism on earth by morality. There is no morality in the purely instinctual operations of mindless creatures.
  • Wayfarer
    20.7k
    You make my point without even realising it.


    I wonder what the evolutionary utility of irony would be?
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