• frank
    2.4k
    helping to create a tyranny over unpopular minorities.unenlightened

    Is that brewing in the UK? I'm asking.
  • fdrake
    2k


    Yes. Especially since Brexit negotiations started.

    Edit: usual disclaimers about causation, correlation, post hoc, observational data and so on.
  • frank
    2.4k
    You mean of an irritating, non-institutionalized sort. Just a greater tolerance for intolerance. Not dispossession, disenfranchisement, or lynching. Right?
  • fdrake
    2k


    Eh, people voted for the dogwhistle parties, Brexit leave campaign was full of racist dogwhistles, not so surprising really. There's a coalition between the populist right and the (possibly latent) racists which is rather unpleasant and certainly bodes ill. Half of the reason Brexit legislation keeps failing to go through parliament is a bunch of Tory assholes who don't want the bloody rag-heads coming in from Europe.

    Nothing formal yet, but still pretty bad.
  • frank
    2.4k
    I see. It's exactly the same in the US.
  • fdrake
    2k


    "The ragheads and Pakis are worrying yer dad but yer dad's favourite food is curry and kebab...'
  • I like sushi
    616
    That’s a slight exaggeration. It is not like people voted purely on immigration (which wouldn’t effect immigration from India, Pakistan or Bangladesh in the slightest as they’re not EU countries).

    There is always certain opportunists pushing this or that agenda though when it comes to playing on people’s often irrational fears. A great number voted simply because they wanted complete sovereignty ... whether or not the fears are legit is another matter.
  • fdrake
    2k
    It is not like people voted purely on immigration (which wouldn’t effect immigration from India, Pakistan or Bangladesh in the slightest as they’re not EU countries).I like sushi

    I know that. UKIP voters and the worst parts of the Tories didn't.
  • unenlightened
    3.5k
    You mean of an irritating, non-institutionalized sort.frank

    Not entirely. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office_hostile_environment_policy

    A great number voted simply because they wanted complete sovereigntyI like sushi

    And what a sick joke that turns out to be. The sovereignty of a parliament that is the least democratic of the EU countries, and about as functional as a thing that has no function and is broken. As if making deals with other countries can ever be done without making concessions - unless you 'send a gunboat'. But we stray from the topic.

    I reiterate; Scruton is smart. He knows how things resonate; he knows exactly what associations he is leading people to make, and he has no scruple about doing it. He is malevolent.
  • frank
    2.4k
    Not entirely.unenlightened

    Is a desire to limit illegal immigration necessarily a manifestation of racism? I realize the two become entangled, but there are practical reasons for wanting to control immigration, aren't there?
  • frank
    2.4k
    Anyway, fdrake's answer is something I can understand. The targets for the dog-whistles are voters. The whistle is supposed to advance a feeling of unease about the darkification of the UK population. That adds up to power in the hands of the whistlers, which inspires the question: who fired him? And why?

    We live in a thick cloud of exaggeration and bullshit in my part of the world. You get so you don't believe anybody about anything.
  • fdrake
    2k
    That adds up to power in the hands of the whistlers, which inspires the question: who fired him? And why?frank

    The usual function of dogwhistles is to go largely unnoticed and tacitly accepted, they're supposed to create a consensus or work through the myth that the 'average person' agrees with the connotations of the whistling. Scruton's remarks contain dogwhistles that are already known, so regardless of personal belief in what he said (some politicians are like that, others probably aren't), the party has to distance themselves from the person who made the problematic remarks for PR reasons; to present a veneer of respectability.

    Edit: they also work to normalise the connotations. People sometimes resist this fact, but it's the same kind of thing that happens when people think quantum observers are humans from pop-sci articles or that eggs both cure and cause cancer at the same time from the vulgarisation of scientific studies.
  • frank
    2.4k
    In the US, the well-known racist dog-whistle is "law and order," which Trump explicitly used during his campaign. His success put Republicans into a schizoid state. The respectable part did try to stand against him, but the less powerful legislators can't because he's so popular at home. They're stuck standing with him in order to be re-elected. As the faint-of-heart drop out, the more racist Republicans step up to lap up the support Trump continues to create with his continuous stream of fear-mongering.

    So even though firing Scruton might be motivated by the need to protect the veneer, he was still fired. The veneer is intact. The US is going down a more virulent path where the veneer is getting scuffed up, but not quite ready to crack. It's now that people like Hanover should stop fooling around and face the truth. I kind of doubt his type will, though. Weird times.
  • fdrake
    2k
    So even though firing Scruton might be motivated by the need to protect the veneer, he was still fired. The veneer is intact. The US is going down a more virulent path where the veneer is getting scuffed up,frank

    :up:

    Trump removed the need for a lot of euphemisms, you're right.
  • I like sushi
    616
    ... about as functional as a thing that has no function and is broken. — Unenlightened

    Wouldn’t a thing with no function that is broken therefore have a function? Accidentally functional then? Haha!

    All governing systems are partially functional and I’m neither inclined towards complete democracy nor a non-existent one. Due to increasing global pressures - from numerous areas - I think the scales are tipping everywhere and we’ve been caught unawares by some extreme social shifts as the world becomes ‘smaller’ compared to what it was merely a half century ago.

    As for Scruton, he sounds and looks like your typical bond villain and this may make what he says seem much harsher than it would coming from a more doe eyed person. I just remain on guard with what people say in public because the media sphere is not necessarily reflective of an individuals cares and concerns and in an age where vilification is more easily applied than ever I prefer not to jump on the bandwagon finding it more useful to listen to what people from all sides have to say regardless of how abhorrent I may takes their words to be.

    The main concern being voiced here is nothing new:

    “All errors which he is likely to commit against advice and warning, are far outweighed by the evil of allowing others to constrain him to what they deem his good.”

    - John Stuart Mill, ‘On Liberty,’ ‘Of the Limits to the Authority of Society Over the Individual’ (Penguin Books, Great Ideas p.112)
  • Not Steve
    18
    What do you think the catalyst was for this resurgence in sensationalism and identity politics? I can't think of a single event or trend that would have given reactionaries so much pull.
  • Mariner
    366
    "Racist dog-whistle" sounds like a racist dog-whistle. Curious.
  • frank
    2.4k
    What do you think the catalyst was for this resurgence in sensationalism and identity politics? I can't think of a single event or trend that would have given reactionaries so much pull.Not Steve

    I don't know.I came across the idea somewhere that we just naturally swing back and forth. Maybe Trump marks the point where we swing back.
  • ssu
    1.1k
    I consider this conversation over.Maw
    Interesting how much mental gymnastics ssu...Maw
    Interesting to end the conversation and then continue. Well, I've tried to make my point that Scruton is a scruffy old conservative and tried to explain why and you stick to your line that I'm evading the issue.
    I think that you have already played the Worlds smallest violin already for a very long time...
  • Maw
    1.2k
    Interesting to end the conversation and then continue.ssu

    Yeah super interesting
  • unenlightened
    3.5k
    Talking of paradox, Soros, Poland, Zionism, and stuff, here are some more dots from opposing universes seeming to join up.

    https://azvsas.blogspot.com/2019/04/easter-celebrations-in-poland.html?fbclid=IwAR11wcXqAR_-8PLqeZu9yShOphkb80soagSGh5g7pr9H9euXX_9mZ0ZkchY
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