• creativesoul
    11.5k
    There has been much said about successful reference. As I understand it, many a philosophical position diverge at this point. There is a fork in the road. The scope of consequences stemming from one path or another cannot be overstated nor can the knowledge of them be overvalued. I am of the very strong opinion that all actual cases of successful reference share the same core set of common denominators. That core, however, is unobservable. Rather, it can only be arrived at by virtue of careful strong groundwork and subsequent consideration. So...

    Let's pave the way...

    When a capable creature is referring to some thing, they are always doing so via common language use. There are no examples to the contrary. There is no stronger justificatory ground. In order for successful reference to happen, a speaker must draw an other's attention to the same thing that their attention is already upon by some linguistic method or another. The thing being referred to by the language user must also be picked out by the 'listener' in order for successful reference to take place. If that does not happen, the method fails, and it is not a case of successful reference even if the same method could be used by the same speaker with a different listener and successful reference would happen. This is only to place shared meaning where it belongs in this discourse; at the level of existentially necessary for any and all cases of successful reference to happen. Think Witt's beetle. I would strongly caution the reader to remember that it does not follow from the fact that a method has failed to successfully refer that it always fails.

    So, a speaker's attention is on some thing in particular, and s/he wants to draw an other's attention to that thing. S/he does so by virtue of common language use. That is always the case. Pointing is perhaps(arguably) the simplest known method. Describing that which has been previously named and described, and naming that which has been previously named and described are the most complex known methods. The different methods are all existentially dependent upon different things. Those differences will become more apparent, and obvious in many cases, in due time.

    First we look to actual examples of successful reference with the sole intention of seeing what they all have in common that is relevant and/or germane to this particular endeavor. We're gathering actual examples and isolating the universally extant common denominators from that which is subject to individual, historical, familial, cultural and/or societal particulars. The results will be a well-grounded candidate for subsequent consideration. The strongest ground.

    We have A.) naming practices, B.) descriptive practices and C.) both(some combination thereof). The following chronological possibilities are on order.

    1.)naming without ever having used descriptive practices
    2.)describing without ever having used naming practices
    3.)naming that which had been only previously described
    4.)naming that which had been both previously named and described
    5.)describing that which had been only previously named
    6.)describing that which had been both previously named and described

    There are two rudimentary methods of successful reference; naming and descriptive practices. All actual examples include at least one of those two. The list above is a complete set of the six different chronologically possible combinations of successful reference. There are four logically possible combinations of the first two resulting in six different methods. So, actual examples show us two distinct methods and logical possibility leads to six logically possible different methods for successful reference. Purportedly, successful reference can be the result of any one of these 'methods'. I say "purportedly" because that is exactly what I'm attempting to take proper account of, and hopefully by doing so will be able to definitively determine whether or not all six suggested methods are actually capable of successful reference, as compared/contrasted to being just logically possible. So, which enumerated groups - if any - are supported by the available evidence, and which ones rest their laurels upon logical possibility alone?

    Let's consider them individually...

    The first method above is existentially dependent upon only naming practices. By definition enforced by coherence, this method cannot be existentially dependent upon any of the other possible methods. That which is prior to something else cannot be existentially dependent upon that something else. Logically speaking, a creature whose actively involved in naming without ever having used descriptive practices must not have ever used descriptive practices prior to that naming practice event. Failure to acknowledge and maintain that meaningful distinction renders the phrase "without ever having" meaningless. Furthermore, this line of thought gives the notion of "prior to" a much stronger foothold that traditional a priori notions. This foundation is a chronological one, which is intuitively obvious.

    Actual cases of 1.) can not and will not include any of the other methods, lest it would not be a case of 1.). Are there such cases? Of course there are! We can look and see that happening for ourselves. There are everyday actual real life examples of people actively involved in naming practices without ever having used descriptive practices. So, there are cases of 1.). Thus, that group is grounded upon logical possibility and bolstered by correspondence.

    Onto the next group...

    The second method above is existentially dependent upon only descriptive practices. Again, by sheer definition alone - that is enforced by pains of maintaining coherence - this method cannot be existentially dependent upon any of the other possible methods. That which is prior to something else cannot be existentially dependent upon that something else. Logically speaking, a creature whose actively involved in descriptive practice without ever having used naming practices must not have ever used naming practices prior to that particular event. Failure to acknowledge and maintain this meaningful distinction renders the phrase "without ever having" utterly meaningless. Furthermore, just as before, and by the very same standard of measure, cases of 2.) can not and will not include any of the other methods, lest it would not be a case of 2.).

    But alas!

    Much unlike the first method on the list, the second has never been seen. We've never watched that taking place! There are no actual cases of someone actively involved in descriptive practices without ever having used naming practices. Since there are no actual cases of 2.), there can be no actual cases of 3.), for naming that which had been only previously described, requires having been only previously described, and there are no such actual cases. Thus, everyday happenings lead us to realize that two of the six logically possible methods are nothing more than that. 2.) and 3.) are not well grounded, for both have an unacceptable emaciated justificatory ground. They beg for correspondence, but are found sorely lacking. Those two groups rest their laurels upon logical possibility alone. Logical possibility is insufficient for truth. When that logical possibility contradicts everyday events, well there are no stronger grounds for dismissal.

    Time to revisit our thoughts by rearranging the list of methods.

    1.)naming without ever having used descriptive practices
    2.)describing that which had been only previously named
    3.)naming that which had been both previously named and described
    4.)describing that which had been both previously named and described

    Methods 2-4 above are all existentially dependent upon both naming practices and descriptive practices. By sheer definition alone - that is enforced by pains of maintaining coherence - any and all cases of 2-4 must include at least one of the other methods.

    Are there any examples, actual or logically possible ones that are not effectively accounted for?
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k


    The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao;
    The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
    The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
    The named is the mother of ten thousand things.
    Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
    Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations.
    These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
    this appears as darkness.
    Darkness within darkness.
    The gate to all mystery.
    — Lao Tzu
    :joke: Is Lao Tzu trying to describe the nameless?
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    12.4k
    When a capable creature is referring to some thing, they are always doing so via common language use. There are no examples to the contrary.creativesoul

    You don't seem to have ever actually defined "successful reference", but I see no reason to conclude that this can only be done through common language. Even your own (later) example, of pointing, is not an instance of using language. By common definitions of "point" and "language". pointing is not an instance of using language. Your entire thesis appears to be based in this faulty premise. In reality, pointing is neither an instance of naming, nor an instance of describing, and neither is successful reference, it is simply a matter of directing one's attention. So you have actually produced a representation of "successful reference", which completely excludes what successful reference really is, and that is, an instance of directing one's attention.
  • creativesoul
    11.5k
    it is simply a matter of directing one's attention.Metaphysician Undercover

    There is no issue with my premisses. I said "perhaps". Originally I included "arguably"... It doesn't matter unless pointing alone is sufficient/adequate for a case of successful reference.
  • creativesoul
    11.5k
    Directing one's attention by virtue of pointing is language use. Sign language is language. I'm not sure whether or not pointing alone guarantees that the listener and speaker are picking out the same thing. That is required for successful reference. Pointing alone is flimsy and my position allows it either way.
  • creativesoul
    11.5k
    Worst case, pointing is part of naming.
  • creativesoul
    11.5k
    You don't seem to have ever actually defined "successful reference"...Metaphysician Undercover

    Did you read the OP?
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    12.4k

    Yes I read the op, and it seems to me that "reference" is to direct someone's attention, with language or otherwise. The op directs my attention toward naming and describing, neither of which is essential to reference. So I'd say that the op is a failed attempt at directing my attention toward the concept of "reference".

    So there appears to be all sorts of problems with your lay out. First, 1) is impossible, because I cannot direct your attention to something simply by naming it. This would require that you already know the name of it. And how would you know the name of it, if I am the one naming it. My act of naming a thing will not direct your attention to it. Next, 2) is highly unlikely, as you say. So we get to the others, 3-6 which are various combinations of naming and describing, and this is what language use generally is, acts which combine naming and describing. But by distracting us into the subject of language use, you have completely avoided the issue of what is prerequisite to, and what constitutes a successful reference, i.e. a successful act of directing one's attention.

    What produces a successful reference is a type of compatibility between the two individuals involved. This is not a correspondence, nor is it a coherency, but it is a type of consistency. Therefore analyzing the different ways in which language is used will not reveal to you the nature of successful reference, because successful reference is a function of consistency which is understood through principles of sameness, or similarity, rather than through these principles of difference.
  • creativesoul
    11.5k
    Yes I read the op, and it seems to me that "reference" is to direct someone's attention, with language or otherwise. The op directs my attention toward naming and describing, neither of which is essential to reference. So I'd say that the op is a failed attempt at directing my attention toward the concept of "reference".Metaphysician Undercover

    If you have an example of successful reference which does not include what I've set out, I'd like to se it. If you do not, then all you've done is gratuitously assert a contrary position... and a groundless one at that.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    12.4k

    "Pointing", it's your example, but you seem to think pointing is "sign language". So consider taking one's hand and placing it somewhere to feel something, or holding one's head and pointing it in a particular direction, like my father used to do when I was a child, to show me where to look to see what he was talking about. You see, talking about something (describing), and directing one's attention to the thing being talked about, are two distinct things. And, simply naming the thing being described will not direct a person's attention to it. Directing one's attention (successful reference) involves showing one where to look.
  • creativesoul
    11.5k
    Pointing without ever having used naming/descriptive practices...

    That's the example needed.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    12.4k

    Talking about something does not qualify as successful reference. That's the point Reference is to direct one's attention. So the "successful reference" was carried out by pointing my head toward the thing, not by talking about it..
  • creativesoul
    11.5k
    You see, talking about something (describing), and directing one's attention to the thing being talked about, are two distinct things.Metaphysician Undercover

    Funny... we're talking about something, and by virtue of that I've directed your attention to conceptions of reference.
  • creativesoul
    11.5k
    Talking about something does not qualify as successful reference.Metaphysician Undercover

    This goes against everyday observable events...
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    12.4k

    I didn't say that you cannot reference through language, I said that language is not necessary.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    12.4k
    This goes against everyday observable events...creativesoul

    No it does not, because someone can be talking about something and the other person have no idea of what the thing is which is being talked about. So talking about something does not, in itself, qualify as successful reference.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    12.4k
    What qualifies as successful reference is having directed the person's attention in the desired way.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    12.4k
    Language works to direct a person's attention in the desired way because of consistency in usage.
  • creativesoul
    11.5k
    I didn't say that you cannot reference through language, I said that language is not necessary.Metaphysician Undercover

    For any and all?

    Give me an example of successful reference that uses neither naming practices nor descriptive ones.

    Our issue here, as always with you, is a difference in our notions of reference.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    12.4k
    Give me an example of successful reference that uses neither naming practices nor descriptive ones.creativesoul

    I already did, pointing, touching, taking one's hand and guiding that person, etc.. I could list more, but there's no use. Instead of recognizing that these are instances of referencing without language, you just widen your definition of "language" to include these things into your notion of language, as "sign language". But the point is that these things are neither naming, describing, nor a combination of these. So you calling them language doesn't help your case. The fact remains that referencing is something distinct from naming, describing, or a combination of these.

    Our issue here, as always with you, is a difference in our notions of reference.creativesoul

    No, there is actually very little difference between your and my notion of referencing. This is from your op:

    In order for successful reference to happen, a speaker must draw an other's attention to the same thing that their attention is already upon...creativesoul

    Replace "speaker" with "person", and this is exactly the same as my notion of reference. The only difference being that you add the unwarranted qualification "...by some linguistic method or another." So you appear to be making the claim that in order for one to successfully draw another's attention to the same thing (reference), that person must use language.

    Once you realize that a person can draw another's attention to the thing that their own attention is already on, without the use of language, then we'll have common ground for a discussion of successful reference.
  • creativesoul
    11.5k
    The fact remains that referencing is something distinct from naming, describing, or a combination of these.Metaphysician Undercover

    This needs more than gratuitous assertion. It seems to be a divergence between our views.

    Who is right?

    How do we determine that?

    I say that successful reference is different from showing. Showing another my cat is not referring to the cat.

    What say you?
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    12.4k

    I think that "refer" is a complex word with a lot of different uses. It is most commonly use in relation to a subject matter, rather than a physical thing. So for instance you say something to me, and if I am not clear as to what you are talking about, I ask you what are you referring to. What you would be directing my attention to, would be the subject of your talk.

    Now consider your example, your cat. Imagine you are telling me something about your cat "tigger", You say "tigger is ...". I, not knowing that you have a cat named tigger, say "what are you referring to?". In reply, you could either say "my cat named tigger", or you could point to, or hold up the physical object, your cat. Each is an instance of "showing" me. In the former your words show me a grammatical subject, in the latter, your actions show me a physical object.

    Notice that in the former, there is the possibility of no physical object corresponding to the named subject, "my cat named tigger" (the scenario might be imaginary). Nevertheless, you have successfully referenced the subject. When successfully referencing a subject, there is no necessity for a corresponding physical object, and whether or not there is such a corresponding object is irrelevant to the success of the reference.

    Therefore I propose to you that there are two very distinct forms of "successful reference". What is proper to language, as "successful reference", is to direct one's attention to a subject for discussion, and whether or not there is a corresponding physical object or situation is irrelevant. But there is another, completely different form of "successful reference", which is to direct one's attention toward a physical object, or physical occurrence, and this is not a linguistic matter at all, it's a matter of showing the physical object, or occurrence, referenced.

    Do you think it is possible to discuss "successful reference" without equivocating between these two distinct forms of "successful reference", each of which I hope has been successfully referenced, individually, as distinct subjects.
  • creativesoul
    11.5k
    Imagine you are telling me something about your cat "tigger", You say "tigger is ...". I, not knowing that you have a cat named tigger, say "what are you referring to?Metaphysician Undercover

    Which means I referred prior to showing. The showing helps to fix the referent. That is to say that my showing you the cat allows you to draw the same meaningful connections between the name and it's referent. Successful reference requires this(shared meaning).
  • creativesoul
    11.5k
    there is another, completely different form of "successful reference", which is to direct one's attention toward a physical object, or physical occurrence, and this is not a linguistic matter at all, it's a matter of showing the physical object, or occurrence, referenced.Metaphysician Undercover

    What I'm questioning here is whether or not pointing alone, and/or showing alone is referring...

    I don't think it is the same at all really. Related. Connected. Not the same.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    12.4k
    Which means I referred prior to showing.creativesoul

    Yes, you referred to a subject, "your cat" without physically pointing to anything, or physically showing anything. But we never physically point at anything when we refer to a subject. In fact, it makes very little difference whether there's a corresponding physical object or not when we reference a subject. For all I know. or care, you have no cat. The referent, as the matter referred to, is conceptual. So you have not successfully referred to any physical object named "my cat", you have proposed a subject "my cat" as a matter for discussion, and in doing so you have successfully referenced that subject..

    What I'm questioning here is whether or not pointing alone, and/or showing alone is referring...creativesoul

    As I said, there's two very distinct forms of referencing. One is to refer to a physical object, the other to refer to a subject. Until we disentangle the two this question is pointless. Seems you didn't read my post, or at least didn't understand it.
  • creativesoul
    11.5k
    "Your cat" is not equivalent to my cat. I referred to my cat. My cat has a name. "Your cat" does not.

    I was referring to Cookie. Cookie is my cat. "Cookie" is not. I would not refer to "Cookie" unless I was wanting to draw your attention to the name itself and not the referent. Cookie is the referent of "Cookie".
  • creativesoul
    11.5k
    One is to refer to a physical object, the other to refer to a subject.Metaphysician Undercover

    That is two different kinds of referents. It is not two different kinds of referring.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    12.4k
    That is two different kinds of referents. It is not two different kinds of referring.creativesoul

    OK, let's look at it from that perspective then, one type of referring, but two types of referent. How would we determine a "successful reference"? Suppose I refer to "my cat". I have successfully referenced a subject for discussion, "my cat". However, you do not know whether I have a cat or not, so I have not successfully referenced a physical object named "my cat". It is impossible by the law of non-contradiction that the same act of reference can be both successful, and not successful.

    Therefore, we must separate these two as two distinct acts of reference, according to the reality of two distinct referents. However, the act itself, referring to "my cat", is just one act. Therefore, I propose that to resolve this contradiction, we allow that this one act, referring to "my cat", fulfills the criteria of one type of referencing, but not the criteria of the other type of referencing. Therefore it is a successful reference of one type of referencing, but not the other type. And so, to avoid such contradictions which would arise from assuming that the two distinct types of referents are referenced by one type of referring, we ought to assume that it is two different kinds of referring
  • creativesoul
    11.5k
    OK, let's look at it from that perspective then, one type of referring, but two types of referent... ...it is two different kinds of referringMetaphysician Undercover

    :yikes:
  • creativesoul
    11.5k
    Showing another my cat is not referring to the cat.creativesoul

    Do you agree?

    "My cat" is not Cookie. My cat is Cookie. "My cat" is a linguistic expression. Cookie is not.

    I do not show you "my cat" if I bring Cookie into your presence. I show you my cat. My showing you my cat does not reference Cookie. My saying her name aloud does. That is true regardless of whether or not she is present, or you are present.
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