• unenlightened
    2.9k
    Dude you are so (mis)-judgemental. And callous.
  • frank
    2k
    "I'm no Saint" --Zarathustra.
  • unenlightened
    2.9k
    "I am unenlightened" --unenlightened.
  • ssu
    832
    Even if there is another thread for the subject, I think this Renewal and Remembrance thread is the most proper one to note this following anecdote.

    During the official centennial ceremonies of the ending of World War 1, the American president decides (against the advice of his staff) not to go the American cemetary at Belleau Wood as it's raining and he doesn't like his hair to get wet, as he might look bad with wet hair.

    Now, even the best poet couldn't come up with this which is so telling of our time.
  • unenlightened
    2.9k
    I think this Renewal and Remembrance thread is the most proper one to note this following anecdote.ssu

    It is so proper it's incredible. A million or so dead we can cope with, but no one wants to look bad. The lesson has been well learned.
  • Ciceronianus the White
    811
    One of the most grotesque aspects of the peculiarly grotesque Great War is that an estimated 11,000 casualties were incurred on the final day of the war, November 11, 2018, before the armistice came into effect at 11:00 a.m. Commanders (including our General Pershing) were aware of the time at which fighting was to cease but continued to send men "over the top." This was the subject of Congressional hearings, and excuses were given regarding the uncertainty of the timing of the armistice, communication problems, and the desirability of attacks to create a better negotiating position. Remember that as well.
  • frank
    2k
    as he might look bad with wet hair.

    Now, even the best poet couldn't come up with this which is so telling of our time.
    ssu


    Very timely in that it's fake news.

    But it tells us that Finland has yet to discover the umbrella. What, does the snow just blow off and you don't need them?
  • unenlightened
    2.9k
    Finland is fake France, I assume, but we already know that it is Trump who does not know how to operate an umbrella.
  • frank
    2k
    Ssu, who presented the fake information as if it were true, is from Finland, isn't he (or she)? That suggested to me that Finns (which means "Whites" in Gaelic) dont know what umbrellas are. But surely they dont walk around with frozen hair. Maybe they wear hats. White hats.
  • unenlightened
    2.9k
    So what's fake? He didn't go. It was raining. He cannot operate an umbrella. His hair is a big issue for him. And it's all got absolutely nothing to do with Finland.

    Frankly, I'm lost for words, Frank.
  • frank
    2k
    Hmm. Look, a poppy :flower:
  • csalisbury
    1.5k
    sitting in comfort to declare where you all have gone wrongunenlightened

    yeah exactly. Beautiful Soul.

    The content of Owens' poem is powerful and right.

    The role of someone who agrees with Owens is sublimated 'good boys get recognized' or 'good boys ought get first dibs on the lifeboat'
  • frank
    2k
    Why do you think it's about "good boys"?
  • ssu
    832
    What World War 1 was compared to other wars is visually presented in the Auckland Museum War Memorial. There in New Zealand, on the other side of the planet from where the fighting took place, a huge hall in the museum is furnished with the name of the fallen soldiers just from the Auckland area. Next to it is the hall remembering those who died in WW2. That hall is smaller and there are notably less names. The museum continues with this theme and the lists of names rapidly get smaller of the it wars that the country has participated later. When WW1 losses were over 18 000 and WW2 over 11 000, in the Malayan Emergency nearly twenty got killed, in the Korean war 33, in Vietnam 37 and finally there are the few names of the fallen in War on Terror (5 killed). Going through the halls and you can see the change from a conflict that had a huge impact at a small population of only 1 million, which sent over 100 000 of their boys to far away to places like Gallipoli to the present time where likely many people don't even know if the country is participating in the US lead actions around the World.

    Why there are memorials built in New Zealand is simply because the graves are on other continents and nearly a third of the fallen soldiers have no grave.

    Lol. Must be also fake news that Trump never has visited as Commander-in-Chief (or before, of course) the troops in the field in an actual warzone like Afghanistan or the Middle East, unlike Obama or Bush. Of course, it is totally logical for him not to do that because it would just focus media attention to the longest war that the US has fought and is, well, losing. But if you keep it out of sight, it is out of mind. Talk about a truly forgotten war in Afghanistan.

    And Trump, who doesn't remember just in what foot he had bone spurs, has said, his personal Vietnam was avoiding venereal diseases in the 1970's. That's fitting too.
  • frank
    2k
    Must be also fake news that Trump never has visited as Commander-in-Chief (or before, of course) the troops in the field in an actual warzone like Afghanistan or the Middle East, unlike Obama or Bush. Of course, it is totally logical for him not to do that because it would just focus media attention to the longest war that the US has fought and is, well, losing. But if you keep it out of sight, it is out of mind. Talk about a truly forgotten war in Afghanistan.

    And Trump, who doesn't remember just in what foot he had bone spurs, has said, his personal Vietnam was avoiding venereal diseases in the 1970's. That's fitting too.
    ssu

    I would have had so much respect for you if you would have just said, "Oops, I picked up some fake news and ran with it. My bad."

    But you just came back with bluster. Poor form.
  • ssu
    832
    So he went to the cemetary? Ok, then my bad.

    Has he visited the troops in Afghanistan, Iraq or Syria? He has promised to go to see the troops, but he doesn't think it's important. See Trump: It's not 'overly necessary' to visit troops in the war zone

    So, here's more fake news to you, frank.
  • frank
    2k
    So he went to the cemetary? Ok, then my bad.ssu

    No. NPR says rain meant he'd have to go by car instead of helicopter. It wasn't important enough to him, I guess. He went to a different cemetery the next day.

    But you said he didn't go because he didn't want to get his hair wet. That's fake news that you have now doubled down on with unenlightened along with you.

    What I'd truly like to know (from both of you) is this: if your plan is to be just like him, then what are you complaining about?

    I guess that he's better at it than you with power and wealth to show for it.
  • Baden
    7k


    This high horse might be more appealing if it didn't have Trump's face tattooed on its backside. Anyway please, can y'all stop taking about Baby Raindrop and his disputed hydrophobia. The conversation used to be interesting...
  • ssu
    832
    No. NPR says rain meant he'd have to go by car instead of helicopter.frank
    Actually, Trump tweeted that himself. Didn't find that on the NPR site now (perhaps in a radio broadcast?)

    But you said he didn't go because he didn't want to get his hair wet. That's fake news that you have now doubled down on with unenlightened along with you.frank
    At least he was still bitching about getting soaked at the later cemetary, so that's there to confirm that Trump didn't like being outdoors in the rain as the the Vanity fair scoop said
    One Republican briefed on the internal discussions said the real reason Trump did not want to go was because there would be no tent to stand under. β€œHe was worried his hair was going to get messed up in the rain,” the source said
    . See here.

    But I think we should continue (if we want to) this debate on the Trump dump, sorry, Trump thread.
  • Baden
    7k
    But I think we should continue (if we want to) this debate on the Trump dump, sorry, Trump thread.ssu

    :up:
  • frank
    2k
    This high horse might be more appealing if it didn't have Trump's face tattooed on its backside. Anyway please, can y'all stop taking about Baby Raindrop and his disputed hydrophobia. The conversation used to be interesting...Baden

    The OP specifically stated that ssu's info was "so proper [to the thread] it's incredible." But I'm happy to move on.
  • Baden
    7k


    It seemed a bit prolonged to me, but fair enough. My growing Trumpophobia is probably showing.
  • unenlightened
    2.9k
    My growing Trumpophobia is probably showing.Baden

    Yeah, but did you see Corbyn's disrespectful coat? !

    So this is the shit that we dump on the follies of the past, to resurrect them for a pageant of competitive correctness. they'll be turning in their lack of graves. Here's another poem, to get us back on track.

    Nellie the Elephant packed her trunk
    And said goodbye to the circus
    Off she went with a trumpety-trump
    Trump, trump, trump
    Nellie the Elephant packed her trunk
    And trundled back to the jungle
    Off she went with a trumpety-trump
    Trump, trump, trump
    — Ralph Butler and Peter Hart

    And that's from an official website of the United States government, so it must be true.
  • Baden
    7k


    Nellie knew when to bugger off. Other large destructive mammals are not so obliging, unfortunately.
  • unenlightened
    2.9k
    Meanwhile, those who do not have the decency to be dead get rather less remembrance. At least 13,000 hero soldiers left HOMELESS after leaving the military - and almost all have PTSD.
  • ssu
    832
    Well, the last veterans of WW1 have already died. In the US there are less than half a million veterans of WW2 alive from the 16 million that served in that war. In about 12 years there will be very few left.
  • csalisbury
    1.5k
    Why do you think it's about "good boys"?frank

    Hegel's 'Beautiful Soul' is a (stage of the) soul which acts as though outside of the world, condemning the world

    i.e. 'sitting in comfort to declare where you all have gone wrong.'

    'good boy' is a flippant gloss, meant to suggest that when one takes the position of Beautiful Soul, one is doing so primarily a way of figuring out how to protect one's own goodness in a world that would muck it up. Imagine a world thrown into chaos - every conceivable species of inhumanity on display . A benevolent alien lands, surveys the scene reproachfully. How tempting to buttonhole him and say: "oh, yes, you're quite right, it's not good. Let me introduce myself. I see it just as you do. Not good at all." (Same tone as the monologuist in Camus' The Fall)



    Or:

    Rage is in-and-of-the world and is not beautiful. So rage's greatest trick is to sublimate itself; to put itself outside the world, self-beautifying, and place the ugliness in the world which it condemns.

    Or:

    Why did Owens say it in a poem?
  • unenlightened
    2.9k
    Why did Owen say it in a poem?csalisbury

    That's worth its own thread sometime *mumbles something about beautiful tragedy*, but only poetry can speak the unspeakable, because words are weak, and deeds even weaker.

    If we must part,
    Then let it be like this.
    Not heart on heart,
    Nor with the useless anguish of a kiss;
    But touch mine hand and say:
    "Until to-morrow or some other day,
    If we must part".

    Words are so weak
    When love hath been so strong;
    Let silence speak:
    "Life is a little while, and love is long;
    A time to sow and reap,
    And after harvest a long time to sleep,
    But words are weak.
    — Ernest Christopher Dowson

    I heard a programme about the poetry of Afghanistan last night - lots of flowers and orchards and sadness amongst the death and suffering, like the poppies of Flanders. It's very popular there apparently.
  • ssu
    832
    I heard a programme about the poetry of Afghanistan last night - lots of flowers and orchards and sadness amongst the death and suffering, like the poppies of Flanders. It's very popular there apparently.unenlightened
    Poetry that touches people tells something about their lives and their feelings. Hence poetry from the WW1 era is from an age we have problems to relate to. It doesn't reflect our personal experiences and the reality we live in. Naturally poetry can be timeless also, but still.

    (Poppies are indeed very popular in Afghanistan, but perhaps that's another issue)
  • frank
    2k
    Why did Owens say it in a poem?csalisbury

    He's a Holy Fool. Holy Fools also sit outside of society screaming at it. Unenlightened has the character of a Holy Fool. They're usually very irritating and sometimes end up being executed. St. Basil was a Holy Fool.
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