Ben only asserts. Watch, you'll see.

What can I say Im an optimistic person.

It's absurd to think that humanity was a group of brutish, evil monsters without empathy before religion was "invented." Many aspects of religion were outgrowths of capacities well advanced by evolution in the human species before they ever decided to link these capacities with supernatural beings.

Empathy came first, religion followed.

But religion got itself all tied up with all kinds of hypocrisies. And, humans just got smarter, and reject fairy tales as fact.

But empathy remains, since we are hard-wired for it.

Empathy came first, religion followed.

But religion got itself all tied up with all kinds of hypocrisies. And, humans just got smarter, and reject fairy tales as fact. — Questioner

Yes, although some religious folk will say that since goodness emanates directly from God’s nature, we are good because it reflects God’s nature, with empathy being a part of the divine character. This would predate religion.

I’ve generally held that theists have no objective basis for moral beliefs. A key indicator of this is that even within a single religion all they can do is disagree on most moral issues. No one can demonstrate which god is real, or what that god believes about morality. It's all contested interpretations. So what we have are vehement disagreements between believers about what’s good. God doesn’t solve any problems when it comes to making moral decisions.

Yes, although some religious folk will say that since goodness emanates directly from God’s nature, we are good because it reflects God’s nature, with empathy being a part of the divine character. This would predate religion. — Tom Storm

But still depends on an external source for empathy - a god - and empathy is not that but something we developed as we evolved as a social species.

God doesn’t solve any problems when it comes to making moral decisions. — Tom Storm

I recall a quote from an 18th century Indigenous person - who said to a colonizer - "You white folk need a Big Book to tell you what is right, but what is right is engraved upon my heart."

What indigenous group/person? I am extremely skeptical of a quote like that from a category of people known to be amenable to superstitions and creator myths.

But still depends on an external source for empathy - a god - and empathy is not that but something we developed as we evolved as a social species. — Questioner

I don’t think that’s right by their reasoning because under this view (Calvin, Anslem, Aquinas) all goodness, in whatever form it takes, is grounded in God’s nature rather than existing independently of it. When we care for others, when we have empathy, we are participating in or responding to that nature as it is reflected in us. A developed expression of this idea is found in the parable of the Good Samaritan, where moral concern or empathy is not confined to one’s own community but is extended even to detestable outsiders.

I recall a quote from an 18th century Indigenous person - who said to a colonizer - "You white folk need a Big Book to tell you what is right, but what is right is engraved upon my heart." — Questioner

Interesting that you wrote it like this. The idea that morality is engraved upon our hearts is a common frame used by Christians, who argue that regardless of the ten commandments, morality is part of God’s nature within us, which is how many of them explain an atheist having capacity for goodness. It's likely borrowed from Paul writing in Romans where he says even of ignorant gentiles that morality is "written on their hearts".

It seems very odd to need a proof that god exists in order to do the right thing.

It seems very odd to need a proof that god exists in order to do the right thing. — Banno

It would be a shame to waste a good sin.

All theists (& deists) deny the existence of some or all gods except whichever one they happen believe in, or worship. Atheists, however, are consistent believing in one less god than monotheists believe in and for (at least) the same reason monotheists reject all other gods – they are false/unreal. As for morality: to the degree any person – atheist or theist/deist – has unimpaired empathy, s/he will tend to 'do no harm' to anyone (i.e. behave morally) even without "commandments" from On High or threats of eternal torture. "God" is neither a metaphysical explanation nor an ethical justification (re: e.g. Plato's Euthyphro, Epicurus' "Riddle", Hillel the Elder's "Golden Rule" ...)