• schopenhauer1
    2.1k
    So, a PP does derive joy or pleasure or happiness from the aesthetic view of humankind. Is that what a true PP would say?Posty McPostface

    I don't know. There may be a sense of consolation in pessimism. Sometimes, I get a bit giddy reading an author explain the situation that is life in a particularly powerful turn of phrase. However, I think the pleasure or happiness is tangential to the actual picture that is being perceived.

    Not so. I equate psychological wellbeing or eudaimonia with "results" here.Posty McPostface

    Psychological wellbeing has to be defined. But using the idea of eudaimonia, it is an idea that is almost besides the point for the aesthetics of PP. You can attempt to achieve eudaimonia- this doesn't override the metaphysical understanding of PP. However, the metaphysical understanding of PP would most likely turn away from such a notion. Rather, projects, relationships, and such are the products of a metaphysical lack and then coping with this lack. Baden actually made a point once about PP which was prescient. He said that PP's idea of a most ideal state would be one akin to death or sleep with no dreams. It is dissatisfaction that brings about the desire for eudaimonia. It is a method to cope with the world, but that we have to cope and deal with the world is what the PP is after.
  • Posty McPostface
    4.7k
    There may be a sense of consolation in pessimism.schopenhauer1

    What's great about it? Keep in mind that I live a very pessimistic life myself. Isn't pessimism self-indulging? One lives in a made up world of one's own making and wallows contently in it. I don't complain about the world; but, my own world of my own making, not the other way around...

    Psychological wellbeing has to be defined.schopenhauer1

    Normatively we have some idea of what "normal" people do or behave or feel like, since we can emulate them. I think, that's why we watch so much TV. Not only is it entertaining; but, we're emulating them as we watch them. You know that feeling that you get in your head of what the person is going to say or do? I guess that's anticipation?

    But using the idea of eudaimonia, it is an idea that is almost besides the point for the aesthetics of PP.schopenhauer1

    How so?

    Rather, projects, relationships, and such are the products of a metaphysical lack and then coping with this lack.schopenhauer1

    But, coping is an active practice. Nothing about wanting things is a conscious or active practice.

    Baden actually made a point once about PP which was prescient. He said that PP's idea of a most ideal state would be one akin to death or sleep with no dreams.schopenhauer1

    What's wrong with sleep with dreams? At least pleasant dreams?

    It is dissatisfaction that brings about the desire for eudaimonia.schopenhauer1

    So, let me just recount. We are imperfect, due to the nature of the world or ourselves in relation to it. Do we cope with this deficit by trying to achieve eudaimonia? But, coping is an activity.

    It is a method to cope with the world, but that we have to cope and deal with the world is what the PP is after.schopenhauer1

    But, PP encourages passivity and inaction or withdrawal from the world, no? I mean, since the world is such a mean place then why expose yourself to criticism, complaints, toil, struggle? It would simply be inconsistent to state otherwise. So, is this how you cope with a situation? I don't think anyone would define that a winning strategy or effective coping.
  • schopenhauer1
    2.1k
    One lives in a made up world of one's own making and wallows contently in it. I don't complain about the world; but, my own world of my own making, not the other way around...Posty McPostface

    I don't really know what you're trying to say. I characterize it more as rebellion rather than mere acceptance. This is perhaps why I thought your criticism of complaining tout court needed to be addressed. There are legitimate grievances and a rebellion can be justified against it.

    What's wrong with sleep with dreams? At least pleasant dreams?Posty McPostface

    I have no problems with it.
    So, let me just recount. We are imperfect, due to the nature of the world or ourselves in relation to it. Do we cope with this deficit by trying to achieve eudaimonia? But, coping is an activity.Posty McPostface

    I don't know if PP has an active stance against or for the achievement of eudaimonia. It might fit in a pessimistic metaphysical framework actually. My main gripe with it is that it ignores the metaphysical lack behind the scenes.

    But, PP encourages passivity and inaction or withdrawal from the world, no? I mean, since the world is such a mean place then why expose yourself to criticism, complaints, toil, struggle? It would simply be inconsistent to state otherwise. So, is this how you cope with a situation? I don't think anyone would define that a winning strategy or effective coping.Posty McPostface

    A Schopenhaurean pessimist might recommend withdrawing into ascetic practice or aesthetic practice or acts of compassion.. anything to not focus on your own willing nature. If the individual will is supreme then the diminishing of it would be the strategy against its grip. I don't know if I really prescribe to that recommendation. Rather, understanding the restlessness, discussing it with others, and finding consolation is about as good as we can do. Eudaimonia and other virtue theory concepts remind me a little too much of the average middle class agenda.. it is amenable for social institutions and people in power to use to keep things going the way they are.. if the natives buy into the very values that keep things going as they are, then all the better.
  • Posty McPostface
    4.7k
    I don't really know what you're trying to say.schopenhauer1

    I have in mind the distinction between appearances and reality. Think about the title in your car's rear view mirror, saying that objects in the mirror are closer than they appear, as an example.

    I characterize it more as rebellion rather than mere acceptance.schopenhauer1

    A rebellion against what? The fact that life seems unfair? Everyone experiences that more or less; but, they cope with it differently than a PP would.

    I don't know if I really prescribe to that recommendation. Rather, understanding the restlessness, discussing it with others, and finding consolation is about as good as we can do.schopenhauer1

    But, that's not coping. That's wallowing in one's misery and asking others to hold hands with you.
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.2k
    Allow me to complain about this mischaracterization. You haven't broken the rules, but the idea you've been unusually polite by the standards of this forum isn't remotely true. So, you have the right to ignore schopenhauer1's complaints about you, but please don't bring the rest of us into it.Baden

    I didn't mean to compare myself to written theoretical guidelines. I meant to compare myself to actual conduct.

    Undeniably, easily-demonstrably, with respect to the mid-range of the politeness-scale here, I'm far to the polite side of it.

    Unprovably, but plausibly, I suggest that I'm on the polite side of the mean, median and mode too.

    Of course the evaluation of politeness, and especially an estimate of its mean and median, is subjective and definitely doesn't lend itself to agreement.

    Michael Ossipoff
  • schopenhauer1
    2.1k
    But, that's not coping. That's wallowing in one's misery and asking others to hold hands with you.Posty McPostface

    Again, it is not about wallowing. There is a lack at the root of things. We need homeostasis, we need entertainment (which I define broadly). Yes everyone has to deal in the first place. Yes it is worth exploring the "unfairness" as you characterize it. Acceptance, though the popular self-help approach is also a way to keep you from looking too much into it.
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