• TranscendedRealms
    126
    I've struggled with many miserable moments in my life and my emotional experiences were something powerful and profound. This experience has led me to a conclusion that I'm desperate to prove. I've been trying to prove it time after time. But all those attempts have failed since I didn't present and explain it the best way I possibly could. What's more, I just couldn't find a way to explain it at the time. However, I think I finally got it right this time. People deny and dismiss my emotional experiences as being nothing more than "trivial feelings" because humanity has a huge misconception regarding emotions.

    They think they're nothing more than biochemical induced states in the brain when, in reality, they are literally the experience of beauty, joy, horror, tragedy, suffering, disgust, etc. in our lives. Humanity also has a huge misconception regarding their intellect because they believe the words they think are what give them beautiful, joyful, or horrible experiences rather than their emotions. This post I make attempts to clear up these misconceptions. Sure, intellect does play a role in our lives and certain words we think can make us feel certain emotions.

    But I think it can only be the emotions themselves that give our lives value. Many people might disagree with this view. But I think my personal views are the truth and I don't care how offensive they are; the truth is often times offensive, people don't like to hear it, but I'm going to share and express that truth anyway. I'm tired of my own personal experience being denied and that's why I'm sharing this. Since people are denying my personal experience, then I will return the favor and deny theirs. With that being said, I would like to begin:

    Explanation Of My Worldview: Buddhists and other people talk about suffering and how we suffer through our ways of thinking. But the words we believe and think can't be any real form of suffering since words are just concepts or ideas and not the real thing/experience. I'll give you an example. The word "money" isn't the same thing as actual money.

    So, believing the words "I'm rich" won't make you rich. Also, believing the words "I'm in physical pain" isn't the same thing as actual physical pain. It's just the idea of physical pain. In order to experience physical pain, then you would have to feel physical pain. Likewise, thinking of the most horrible things in your life and believing that you're suffering isn't the same thing as actual suffering.

    How we suffer is through negative emotions such as feelings of misery, agony, or despair. Buddhists and other people also talk about happiness. Again, positive emotions are the only mental states that allow us to be happy and enjoy things. There is no other mental state that can allow us to be happy just as how there is no other mental state that can give us physical pain, hunger, thirst, heat, cold, sounds, or smells.

    Also, people claim there is an intellectual form of emotions (that thoughts and emotions can be the same thing). I disagree with this. Intellect is the words we think and words themselves cannot be any real emotion. It doesn't matter how emotional people act through their intellect; I still think people are just acting out on words/intentions and not any real emotions. Therefore, it can only be the primitive, instinctive emotions which are the real emotions.

    An example of these emotions would be a feeling of panic from being in a dangerous situation, a feeling of excitement from going to the carnival, or a feeling of sexual arousal. This means, even if you felt positive emotions from doing intellectual activities, that still wouldn't be an intellectual form of emotions. You would still be feeling the primitive, instinctive emotions.

    As you can see here, the intellectual area of our brains cannot experience emotions, sounds, smells, colors, hunger, thirst, physical pain, heat, cold, suffering, happiness, or value. Rather, it can only experience ideas/words/thoughts. Another thing here. People also claim they can judge things as good, bad, beautiful, horrible, or disgusting through the words they think (their intellect). We call them intellectual value judgments.

    Again, words themselves aren't the real things which means our intellectual value judgments aren't real value judgments. It can only be our emotions which are the real value judgments. Emotional theorists and neuroscientists refer to our emotions as being value judgments since our emotions tell us things such as that our lives are beautiful, we are disgusting, etc.

    Even though they are unreliable value judgments since relying on what our emotions tell us will get us in trouble, I still think they're the only real value judgments. This means the only thing that can attribute real value to our lives is our emotions which means there's no more value to life than our emotions.

    When you judge something as being horrible or beautiful, that's no different than saying you perceive that thing as being horrible or beautiful. This means the only way we can perceive/judge something as horrible or beautiful would be if we felt a certain emotion from that said thing. Otherwise, you would only be perceiving words and not any real horror or beauty.

    In short, our emotions are the only real value judgments and they are the only real perception of value. Perception and experience are the same thing. An example would be, if you are seeing (perceiving) the color red, then you are experiencing the color red and vice versa.

    This means the only way we can experience the beauty, greatness, joy, horror, tragedy, and disgust of things in this life would be through our emotions. Positive emotions are the only things that can make our lives good, great, beautiful, and they are the only things that can give us the experience of beauty, greatness, and joy since they are value judgments of good, beauty, joy, and greatness.

    Negative emotions are the only things that can make our lives bad, horrible, disgusting, and they are the only things that can give us the experience of horror, tragedy, despair, misery, disturbance, and disgust since they are value judgments of bad, horrible, tragic, morbid, disturbing, disgust, etc.

    Having no emotions (apathy) can only render our lives with no horrible or beautiful experience at all. It would be a dull, empty, valueless life since no value would be perceived. Therefore, the goal in life should be to avoid negative emotions as well as apathy and to pursue positive emotions since positive emotions are the only beautiful way to live and be an artist.

    There is a worldview out there known as hedonism which advocates this way of life. It is a philosophy which states that positive emotions are the only good things in life. Sadly, positive emotions are very fleeting things and many people struggle with depression.

    This means living a life that is beautiful, great, joyful, and worth living doesn't come around too often considering that life has many miserable, unhappy moments. With all of this being said, people are confusing words for the real things. But this post I've made makes a clear distinction between words and the real things since it makes a distinction between the words we think and what we're actually experiencing.

    For me, my positive emotions are the positive experience and I have yet to acquire a new positive experience in my life to convince me that there's more beauty, fun, joy, and greatness to life than positive emotions. Lastly, I would like to share a link to the emotional perception theory of value. Those who disagree with it would have to be in denial of their own emotions and, thus, they would also have to be in denial when it comes to their intellect.

    If they think emotions aren't real value judgments and that they're not any perception of value, then they could also be in denial when they claim their intellectual value judgments are real value judgments and that their intellect is the real perception of value. One of the people who disagrees with this theory is the person in this link who attempts to prove emotional theorists wrong and I disagree with him/her based upon my own personal experience:

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-9329.2011.00518.x

    Different Areas Of The Brain Will Experience Different Things: For example, the visual cortex will experience visuals, the audio cortex will experience sound, another area will experience smells, another will experience hunger, other areas allow us to feel emotions, etc. As I said before, the intellectual area of our brains cannot experience any of those things and it can only experience thoughts and intentions.

    Sure, certain thoughts can send signals to any one of those brain regions to allow us to experience those things such as if you felt hungry and thirsty from thinking of your favorite food and beverage. But, as long as that thought doesn't send the signal to those areas of the brain, then you can't experience hunger and thirst via thought.

    As a result, you can only have the thought of being hungry and thirsty or the thought of your favorite food and beverage. The same idea applies to the value in our lives whether that value be beauty, joy, horror, disgust, or tragedy. People who struggle with chronic, clinical depression can't feel positive emotions no matter what thoughts they think because their brains aren't working properly.

    As a result, those thoughts can't send the signal to the areas of the brain that allows them to feel positive emotions. Thus, they can't experience any beauty, greatness, love, happiness, worth, joy, or anything positive in their lives.

    Therefore, they can only have the thought that their lives are beautiful and worth living while the sad reality is that their lives are empty and passing them by. However, if there are moments where they can feel positive emotions, then those are the moments where their lives and any given endeavor (such as the helping of others) can be perceived as beautiful and worth living for.

    Emotions Make Things Matter To Us: Let me say another thing here which I think is important. Emotions are a form of motivation and, when you are motivated in regards to something, that's no different than saying something matters to you. This means emotions are states of mind where things matter to us. When something matters to you, that's no different than saying something has value from your perspective.

    Positive emotions make things, people, moments, works of art, and situations matter to us in positive ways and negative emotions make things matter to us in negative ways. That's no different than saying positive emotions make things of beautiful value from our perspective and negative emotions make things of horrible, bad, or disgusting value from our perspective.

    Without any emotions (apathy), then nothing can matter to us at all and people would only be confused and in denial to believe otherwise. As you can see here, that's why I need my positive emotions to make my life something positive, beautiful, and worth living for. Therefore, I should live my life seeking as much positive emotions as I possibly can. Without emotions, then life is just life. But our positive emotions make life something more. They makes it into a beautiful, amazing, joyful work of art.

    Hint: Here's a hint which supports my worldview/claim. Haven't you ever felt that your life was horrible, that someone in your life was a disgusting person, or that a certain thing was beautiful? Well, that's no different than perceiving your life as horrible, someone as disgusting, or a certain thing as beautiful. You should pay very close attention to your emotions next time.

    Only then should you come to realize that they are perceptions/value judgments of beauty, horror, disgust, etc. In addition, you should also pay very close attention to your intellectual value judgments. You should come to realize that they're not real value judgments since they're just words and not the real experience of beauty, horror, disgust, etc.
  • BC
    13.1k
    An elder professor advised us, "be careful how you talk to yourself."

    Experiences are real, emotions are real, neurotransmitters are real, ideas are real, words are real -- all real in a different way. Some people think emotions, ideas, etc. are merely neurotransmitters sloshing around in our skull. The various chemicals and electrical impulses by which our brains operate are not experiences, they are only the brain's tools to help us have and remember experiences.

    Emotions underlie our mental operations, and are more central than the ideas we think about and the words we use. Emotions are what make animal life an ongoing enterprise. Without emotions, we would not care to do much of anything. Without emotions we would be more like a digital machine.

    Thought is the handmaiden of the emotions, who? Hume? said.

    Emotions come first, but the cognitive capacity of the brain can accelerate or dampen emotions. That's where the words you use come in. Let's say you are bicycling on your way, and you have a flat tire, no repair kit, and no cell phone. You might be angry, fearful, annoyed, etc. If you describe this minor event as a terrible thing, a disaster -- a catastrophe, the worst thing to have ever happened to you, etc., you will fuel your emotions. On the other hand, if you describe this as "Just goes with the territory" and start walking, you'll won't feel too much distress, one way or the other.

    Sometimes we make distinctions that make no difference. I can't tell the difference between a real value judgement and an "unreal" value judgement. If I think having a flat tire is just terrible, and I make myself cry by describing it in horrible terms, words, it's a real value judgement. I might be quite wrong, but the judgement is real enough.

    Similarly, I don't think there are false emotions. You either feel something or you don't. You might be wrong about whether you are in love, or merely totally turned on and deeply in lust, but whatever you were feeling is still real.

    Does any of this help clarify things?

    As I said before, the intellectual area of our brains cannot experience any of those things and it can only experience thoughts and intentions.TranscendedRealms

    Hmmmm, I'm not sure about that. It's seems to me that many parts of the brain are involved in perception, one of which is our reasoning capacity. There isn't too much for your cognition to do when you look at a vivid, bright red wall. If you look at something that is gray scale and rather indefinite, your cognition comes into play in the effort of trying to ascertain what it is that you are looking at. Is that a cat? A bird? A frog? A horse?

    When paleontologists look at fossils, the bones are often jumbled up. One has to look long and hard at the fossil to make sense of it. It's vision + cognition + memory + imagination.

    This is Unenlightened's avatar. some people see frogs, some see horse heads? What do you think it is? Can you see more than one possibility here?

    lFM5TBLPB9B4B.jpg?v=CNP
  • TranscendedRealms
    126


    All I know is that my positive emotions are states of mind where I perceive things in my life as beautiful, great, and amazing. Without my positive emotions, then I can no longer have that perception. Rather, I could only think to myself that things are beautiful and amazing. But thinking that way does me no good. So, truly thinking that my life is beautiful during my miserable moments does nothing for me. I need to perceive beauty; not think it.
  • Shawn
    12.6k
    How would you characterize the mind of a chronic depressive? I think they are able to feel emotions such as joy, from time to time, although much more rarely than someone who isn't depressed. My issue is with trying to describe states of mind through emotion, apart from reason.

    We know that rationally based talk therapy, CBT, and other therapies are effective at alleviating depression to some degree. So, reason is playing some role in all this and not a dysphoria of mood only.
  • Blue Lux
    581
    Usually talk therapies address emotions.

    Psychoanalysis does this... Free association.

    Free association means that a person speaks about their life... The analyst directs these thoughts not by an imposition but as an, theoretically, assuming of the other as opposed to the Other (in Lacanian analysis). The other is that which is spoken toward in one's own head. The purpose is to elaborate not on thought but those emotions... And furthermore to confront those emotions and accept them in order for further growth. Psychoanalysis is not the eradication of depression for "Depression is not a sign of weakness but a sign one has been trying too hard for too long" (Freud). Psychoanalysis does not alleviate pain or contradict it... It rather clears the obstructed path toward what would be happiness of fulfillment, along with the acceptance of all emotions, desires and impulses.
  • Blue Lux
    581
    "In order to change, one must accept." Jung
  • Shawn
    12.6k


    Yeah, but in all this, there's some rational guidance being in play. Even free association employs some rational guidance from the part of the therapist.
  • Shawn
    12.6k
    "In order to change, one must accept." JungBlue Lux

    Accept what?
  • BC
    13.1k
    All I know is that my positive emotions are states of mind where I perceive things in my life as beautiful, great, and amazing. Without my positive emotions, then I can no longer have that perception.TranscendedRealms

    Well... that makes good sense to me, both as an anecdote and as a piece of theory. It is a positive emotion that enables us to relate to something as beautiful, great, amazing, etc. Of course, one can apply a formula: tall mountains, snow on top, conifer trees on all but the higher reaches, blue sky = beautiful. But a formula won't allow one to FEEL it.

    Conversely, if one is under the influence of mostly negative emotions (fear, anxiety, anger, despair, etc.) the same world you saw as beautiful is going to appear drained of its color, lively interest, delight, and pleasure. Fortunately, we are usually not altogether under any particular set o emotions all the time.

    The conscious mind can have an effect on our emotions by making decisions that bring us to happier circumstances. For instance, you may be bubbling over with hateful emotions about the people you work with. (I've been there,) You can't talk your self out of those feelings. What your conscious mind can do is decide to quit (or do something to get fired) and then find something which is hopefully better.
  • BC
    13.1k
    Accept what?Posty McPostface

    Everything.

    It's axiomatic: In order to change what is, one must first accept (acknowledge) what is. You can't do anything about what is if you deny that it exists. So, one may actually be a tyrannical asshole. One has to accept one's tyrannical assholeness before one can begin to do something about it -- like changing one's personality.
  • Shawn
    12.6k


    And how does that change anything wrt. to depression?
  • Shawn
    12.6k


    Yeah, and still there's a need for reason to guide someone out of their lows? If I accept everything then I haven't accepted much.
  • BC
    13.1k
    Don't ask me, I never figured out the secret to popping depression's black lead balloon. After 30+ years, I'm still taking an antidepressant.

    That said, I'll fall back on the motto of the Radical Therapists: "Therapy means change." If one is depressed, one may be able to change the circumstances of their life. This may involve changes that seem unthinkably risky, ill-advised, reckless, etc. But the truth is, we usually have to make significant changes to our lives.

    In my case, life made the changes for me. I could not have made them. The end of work (I realized the last job I had was really the last job I was going to have) and the death of my partner from cancer ended one stage of my life and ushered in another -- much less stressful -- one. I would not have voluntarily quit, and would not have left Bob. But as I said, life intervened.

    There were earlier times in my life when I should have executed decisions that would have improved my mental health, but I didn't. Didn't have the insight for that at the time.
  • BC
    13.1k
    So, maybe your depression is not at all circumstantial, but is rather endemic. If it is endemic, then there is probably nothing you can do in terms of change that will make a difference. Many people have mental illnesses that are not a result of lifestyle or life-decisions. Schizophrenics aren't schizophrenic because they didn't eat their green leafy vegetables or didn't exercise regularly or didn't got to bed at 10:30 p.m.

    We do get stuck with bad deals. I was born with really poor vision which has always been a disadvantage which I have felt and still feel (bad vision limits one's options). What could be done about it was done, but only some improvement was possible. My tough luck. I developed depression; more bad luck. Maybe I made some bad career decisions which left me cornered in unrewarding work. Anyway, I'm stuck with it.

    You are depressed. Apparently you've been depressed for quite some time. Bad luck.

    Some people seem to be born with zero problems and live lives of pretty much continual improvement---damn their hides. Most of us get stuck with manure piles of various sizes.
  • BC
    13.1k
    everythingPosty McPostface

    Accept "everything" was a joke. Sorry. Didn't think anybody would take it too seriously. Acceptance doesn't mean one likes it. One doesn't have to like/approve of/admire/believe/ whacko post-modernists or far-right Republicans. but one has to "accept" that they exist. Accepting that they exist enables one to know who to waylay in a dark alley and pound sense into their heads.
  • Blue Lux
    581
    But the rational guidance is based on the understanding of how thought can elucidate upon emotions.

    Accept what?Posty McPostface

    In terms of depression... In order to change away from that depression, one must first completely accept the conditions of that depression... For depression subsists often in one's inability to accept what has happened to them or how they feel and the fact that they cannot and will not ever be able to change these things. Only after a person accepts can one become to be something different, perhaps, in contrast to what is accepted.
  • Blue Lux
    581
    If you struggle with depression... A great book is 'Modern Man In Search Of A Soul" by Carl Jung. I myself have major depression and PTSD and have struggled with it since I was 12, and am 20 now.
  • creativesoul
    11.4k
    I don't think attempting to draw a sharp distinction between reason(language use) and emotion will lead one to understanding how one gets to a point where they feel a certain way. Some emotion is bound up in the way one comes to terms with life. Most emotion is utterly empty if it weren't for all the language that preceded it. Language affects/effects thought and belief. Thought and belief have efficacy. As you already know, certain words or phrases can bring about entirely 'new' emotional states of mind.

    That's the proof of the power that language and thought/belief has upon one's emotional state of mind. Bittercrank offered a fine example of self-discipline with the flat tire scenario. Emotional intelligence is what we often call the ability to recognize one's own past emotional triggers ahead of time, in order to improve one's response/reaction should a similar situation arise again...

    Best of luck to you...
  • Blue Lux
    581
    Language itself does not do it.
    Most emotion is utterly empty if it weren't for all the language that preceded itcreativesoul

    Surely you mean 'empty' as in conceptually empty...

    As you already know, certain words or phrases can bring about entirely 'new' emotional states of mindcreativesoul

    Are you implying that words themselves create emotions?

    Language affects/effects thought and belief.creativesoul

    I agree that it affects thought, but that thought and belief are determined by language itself is a very unfree idea.
  • creativesoul
    11.4k
    Language itself does not do it.Blue Lux

    Language itself includes users.

    Most emotion is utterly empty if it weren't for all the language that preceded it
    — creativesoul

    Surely you mean 'empty' as in conceptually empty...

    I mean empty as in nonexistent.


    As you already know, certain words or phrases can bring about entirely 'new' emotional states of mind
    — creativesoul

    Are you implying that words themselves create emotions?

    Words themselves includes usage and all that that entails. Yes, I am claiming that most of our emotions are products of being interdependent social creatures. All arise from contentment and fear.


    Language affects/effects thought and belief.
    — creativesoul

    I agree that it affects thought, but that thought and belief are determined by language itself is a very unfree idea.

    I see it quite the other way around. Realizing that language use affects/effects one's own thought and belief is the first step necessary in being as free as humans can get. The human will is not free from influence. Knowing that is required for intentionally choosing better influences. Words influence.
  • Blue Lux
    581
    So I am happy because of words? I am sad because of words? I experience joy because of words? I experience anxiety because of words? These are nonexistent without language?

    The emotions associated with love, for instance, when someone loved dies, is from fear and or contentment? I disagree. I think emotion is absolutely impoverished in its concept.

    The strongest emotions I have had are those best represented by poetry, which has no particular logical construction..
    But the strongest emotions I have had completely elude any language.
  • Blue Lux
    581
    If the human will is not free from influence then it is not completely free. I choose radical freedom.
  • creativesoul
    11.4k
    Well...

    Not just "because of words". That's much too simple a description.

    But yeah, pretty much, in overly simple terms.
  • creativesoul
    11.4k
    If the human will is not free from influence then it is not completely free. I choose radical freedom.Blue Lux

    Choose whatever words you wish. The human will is not free from influence.
  • Blue Lux
    581
    I absolutely disagree!

    Language strives to capture emotion or reconfigure it into a communicably apprehendable way, not to establish it. It cannot establish it. It is pre established!
  • Blue Lux
    581
    The human will is not in chains by this 'influence.' Volition is rather the concrescence of what, after language has intervened and objectified it, constitutes a consciousness of the world. It is not determined to be influenced to be a particular way that is not choosing and experiencing carte blanche.
  • creativesoul
    11.4k
    Language strives to capture emotion or reconfigure it into a communicably apprehendable way, not to establish it. It cannot establish it. It is pre established!Blue Lux

    Do not confuse language with thought and belief. Complex thought and belief requires language. As do complex emotions. There are no jealous infants, nor disappointed ones. There are ones in discomfort(discontent), contentment, and fearful ones...
  • creativesoul
    11.4k
    It does not follow from the fact that the will is influenced, that one cannot acquire knowledge of those influences and then choose better ones...

    That's as close as free will gets.

    Regarding the OP, the author must first acknowledge that his/her emotions are largely influenced by how they've come to terms with things, and then s/he may be able to come to better(more acceptable) terms. A therapist could help.
  • Blue Lux
    581
    You cannot change your emotions. You can only add emotions.
  • creativesoul
    11.4k
    You're arriving at self-contradiction...
  • Blue Lux
    581
    how?

    New experiences bring about new emotions. That's what I mean
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment