• Thehoneyman
    6
    Is there actually any proof for either side?

    I've been thinking about it for ages and I'm leaning more towards the belief that it does not exist.
  • Wayfarer
    6.2k
    So, something compelled you to join the forum and ask this question?
  • GreyScorpio
    98
    There is physical proof that the brain makes decisions before we carry out an action, therefore we do not have free will - is one form of evidence that is empirically undeniable.
  • Ying
    174
    There is physical proof that the brain makes decisions before we carry out an action, therefore we do not have free will - is one form of evidence that is empirically undeniable.GreyScorpio

    Why do people only read half of Libets studies? Ignoring his study on "free won't" just amounts to cherry picking.
  • GreyScorpio
    98
    It is still a form of evidence that we should not ignore. Just because it is partial does not mean it did not happen. He asked for evidence and I gave it to him. If he wishes to read the full study then it would be beneficial to his search for knowledge.
  • Ying
    174
    It is still a form of evidence that we should not ignore.GreyScorpio

    Right, we shouldn't ignore Libets experiments in my opinion. We should however ignore gross misrepresentations of his outcomes. Libet himself is a proponent of the free won't model. So there. Also, the conclusions of his experiments can be and are contested. It's not nearly as clear cut as you make it sound. It's very possible to level the claim that Libets experiments amount to a giant post hoc fallacy.
  • GreyScorpio
    98
    It's not nearly as clear cut as you make it sound.Ying

    I understand this but, nothing is clear cut in philosophy.
  • Thehoneyman
    6
    I don't know but I can always trace my choices back and it seems like everything is predetermined ever since the beginning of time. For me to make a different decision I feel like something from another timeline would have to come into ours and interfere or something external like that.
  • Wayfarer
    6.2k
    And there’s certainly nothing I can think of which might cause you to change that opinion.
  • Jeremiah
    1.1k
    Pick one:

    A

    B

    C
  • Jeremiah
    1.1k
    The subconscious mind makes some choices for you from learned behavior of the conscious mind. If you drive the same route to work everyday then your subconscious mind makes the decisions of where to go for you; the initial route, however, was chosen by your conscious mind. Of course the conscious mind can stop the process at any time and make the choice to drive a different way to work, or not even go to work.
  • Jeremiah
    1.1k
    You just demonstrated free choice.
  • Thehoneyman
    6
    I don't think you get it. I made a choice, yes, but what made me choose it? All the contributing factors that made me choose it I actually have no control over.

    Say I did an experiment with 3 identicle mes in 3 identicle universes. I ask them all that question. They'd all answer exactly the same. It was predetermined.
  • GreyScorpio
    98
    I thought someone would bring up that objection :lol:, In any case its hard to believe that we are really free if we already have the choices preemptively chosen for us. Such as; If we were lost driving down a road and come to a fork. The choice is limited between two junctions only. I personally believe that we don't even know what the concept of Free is. We cannot truly understand it if our choices are preemptively chosen for us to make a decision based on what we have been given.
  • Jeremiah
    1.1k
    Where is your empirical evidence? I thought this thread was about proof. Considerating that hard determinism is unfalsifiable I have my doubts your statement there is anything more than an opinion.
  • GreyScorpio
    98
    Say I did an experiment with 3 identicle mes in 3 identicle universes. I ask them all that question. They'd all answer exactly the same. It was predetermined.Thehoneyman

    This is actually really smart, In multiple universes we would have probably made the same decision meaning that it couldn't possibly be us that freely made it? Is that what you are trying to say?
  • Jeremiah
    1.1k


    If you don't know what free means in the context of free will, then how is it possible you have empirical evidence against it? I think you need to get your thoughts in order before you decide what you believe.
  • GreyScorpio
    98
    If you don't know what free means in the context of free will, then how is it possible you have empirical evidence against it?Jeremiah

    That logic can be used for the existence of God. And I do have my thoughts in order, I don't think you have any right to tell me what I should believe. I am just posing points here, not getting hostile.

    Anyway, as I was saying, humans cannot understand the concept of free - even in free will - just like we cannot understand the concept of God. We may know what it is or have an idea of these things, but we do not truly understand it because we have not experienced it as you have just suggested to me -

    then how is it possible you have empirical evidence against it?Jeremiah
  • Jeremiah
    1.1k
    I don't think you have any right to tell me what I should believe.GreyScorpio

    If hard determinism were true, and I am an external agent then by your standards my function would be to tell you what to believe and you would have to comply, which makes the fact that you have decided to resist my external influence a contradictory and interesting decision.

    just like we cannot understand the concept of God.GreyScorpio

    Gods are fantasies created by human imagination; it is not that hard to understand.
  • Jeremiah
    1.1k
    don't think you have any right to tell me what I should believe.GreyScorpio

    In fact I think this could be considered a counter example against the concept of hard determinism. If I push a rock it has no choice but to roll the direction I will it; however, if that rock could resist my push then that is something else. It means it has a force or will to disrupt that line of cause and effect, which would result in a new line of cause and effect.
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