• wellwisher
    Ever since humans have been looking at the stars, we have made the earth the center of the universe, in terms of defining the parameters of the universe.

    For example, the speed of light is measured relative to the earth since this is where our tools are. The speed of light appears to be faster than the earth. It is considered a ceiling speed in nature. But is the speed of light a ceiling, or is the speed of light really the floor; ground state?

    One observations that suggests the speed of light is the ground state is connected to making matter and anti-matter in the lab. If we wanted to make matter and anti-matter in the lab, this will only occur at very high energy. Matter only appears at the upper limits of energy. Therefore, matter is at higher potential than energy. Matter and inertial is the real ceiling of the universe. Energy and the speed of light is the floor.

    The speed of light is the same in all references. The easiest way to explain why this is so, is based on the assumption that the speed of light is the ground state of the universe, which is the same for all references. It is analogous to sea level, which is the same no matter which elevation you start at.

    If you model the universe with the speed of light as the ground state, the model becomes simpler and gets rid of all the anomalies needed to look at the universe up-side-down.

    For example, if the speed was the gourd state, than the direction of the universe would be toward lowering it potential back to the ground state. For example, all the forces of nature give off energy. This action is based on matter and inertial partially going back to energy and C; in the direction of the ground state at C.

    Gravity causes matter to clump. Clumping matter lowers gravitational potential energy and causes space-time to contract. Gravity is also heading in the direction of the C ground state, since at C, space-time is fully contracted. This is approximated by the black hole.

    The expansion of the universe is inferred by the red shift of energy. The red shifting energy is lowering potential. It is moving away from the direction of the extreme energy needed to make matter, toward the lower energy limits of the C ground state. All roads lead to C.

    This model also allows one to go further back into time in terms of the creation of the universe. Since the primordial atom of the BB was composed of extreme matter/energy, it had considerable potential relative to the ground state at C. This cannot be time=0, since it has potential than needed time to develop, since it began at C, at one point.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    But is the speed of light a ceiling, or is the speed of light really the floor; ground state?wellwisher

    Since the speed of light is the constant, it is definitely the "ground state".
  • FLUX23
    I understand what you are trying to say, but the terminology is going everywhere.

    "Ground state" refers to a state with the lowest energy of the particular system you are looking at. On the other hand, "speed of light" is simply speed. So a state and speed cannot be discussed at the same level. So from definition, it makes zero sense to say that "speed of light" is the "ground state" of the universe. But like I said, I know where you are getting to. I'm being a bit nitpickey because it matters in physics.

    Also, speed of light does slow down in medium. What you said only applies to vacuum.

    You are talking about special relativity. Special relativity stands on two principles: 1) principle of relativity and 2) principle of invariant speed of light. These two principles are rather assumptions made by Einstein but an intuitively valid ones based on how the world seems to work.

    What you said about The speed of light is the same in all references comes from the principle of relativity. That is, the physical laws are same for all inertial frame of reference. What you talk about in the gravity is from general relativity.

    So there is nothing new here. What is your point?

    I'm sure that you already know and I am being nitpickey here, but speed of light is not constant. Speed of light slows in a medium.
  • wellwisher

    I am using the speed of light and the speed of light reference, interchangeably, since the speed of light implies a particular reference according to relativity. I will call this reference C-level. As an analogy C-level is analogous to sea level in terms of all the elevations of the earth. It is same for all elevations. If C-level was the ground state of the universe, it would be the place of lowest potential in the universe, with all things heading in that direction, in various ways, to reduce universal potential.

    A briefly discussed above, the forces of nature give off energy as they lower potential. They create aspects within C-level; photons, as the matter lowers potential. Gravity causes space-time reference to contract, which in the limit is the black hole, which has a references similar to C. Gravity is the main way matter lowest potential back toward the ground state. Even universal expansion is heading to C as reflected in the red shift. In this case, energy is going away from the extreme energy needed to make matter. It is heading toward infinite wavelength at C-level.

    Physics does not currently use C-level as the ground state. It assumes, without saying, that inertial and matter is the ground state. Speed of light is measured relative to the earth and given a larger positive value compared to the earth, which is defined as zero. This is up-side-down and has an impact on all of physics.
  • Metaphysician Undercover

    I know that the speed of light is not constant, but it is a constant, equivocation makes a meaningless argument.

    Physics does not currently use C-level as the ground state. It assumes, without saying, that inertial and matter is the ground state.wellwisher

    There is inconsistency between using inertia as the "ground state", and light as the "ground state" because of the difference in the conception of time which lies behind these two. They are fundamentally incompatible because special relativity releases light from the force of inertia which is a function of the passing of time.
  • FLUX23

    Well you said:
    Since the speed of light is the constantMetaphysician Undercover
    which was ambiguous.

    I am not attacking you or anything. But your extra remark "equivocation makes a meaningless argument" is starting to show some hostility. Relax.
  • FLUX23
    I am sorry but like I said, the terminology is going everywhere in your post and it is really hard to comprehend...I advise you use more standard physical terms.
  • wellwisher
    It is hard to use standard physics terms because many of these terms are based on up-side-down and not the right side up. These are not needed, if C-level is the ground state.

    I think I understand the main source of confusion.

    Light; photons, move at the speed of light. However, light is not entirely in the C-level reference of the ground state. Light will also red and blue shift based on local inertial references. This observation creates a paradox. If light moves at a constant velocity, C, but its time and distance parameters; frequency and wavelength, are variable, it can't be entirely in the C-level ground state. If it was, the wavelength and frequency should always appear constant and unaffected by inertial.

    Light is not entirely at C-level or in the ground state. Light contains inertial potential and is impacted by inertial references. However, light has one leg in C and acts as a bridge between C-level and inertial.

    Theoretically, C-level, in terms of energy, would only be composed of infinite wavelength energy. The universal red shift and the impact of black holes move universal energy in the direction of the C-level ground state.
  • wellwisher
    In terms of time and space, if we could move at the speed of light, in a spherical orbit, we would see the inertial universe contracted to a point-instant. Space-time would break down into separate space and separate time. The integration of space-time would be lost. One can move in time without space and/or move in space without time. This is closer to C-level.

    The reason this is so, is since the universe would appear to be a point-instant, everything in the universe would appear to overlap in space and in time, so we can be anywhere and everywhere, simultaneously due to the point-instant reference; omnipresence. One is not limited by distance or time lag implicit of space-time references. The fabric of space-time unravels into separate threads.

    This is another aspect, needed to better define C-level. C-level does not contain any excess time or distance potential; separated threads of space and/or time. Our current universe contains separated distance and time potential threads. The easiest to see is force and acceleration. Acceleration is d/t/t or one part distance and two parts time. It is space-time plus time threads; time threads embroidered into the fabric of space-time to create a pucker. Force uses up time potential, implicit of another path back to C-level.
  • FLUX23
    The reason I am saying you need to use standard physical terms is simply because you are talking about physics. You can't just make up a word that already has a name for. "Ground state" is a defined term in physics, so you must use the term according to that definition.

    Conceptual things often need the right terminology or it is only going to cause more confusion, especially when the concepts have already been well established. What you written up there caused more confusion than anything else.
  • wellwisher

    Ground state, in physics, is a relative term based on the ambient conditions. The hydrogen atom on the sun, may never reach the same ground state, as the hydrogen atom on the earth. We also have the problem with inertial references being relative, such that the observation of the wavelength given off by the ground state of the hydrogen, is also relative to the observer. How do you do normalize an energy balance across all references?

    The speed of light ground state; C-level, is the universal ground state. It is the same for all references, since it is not relative, but absolute to all references. This is the ground state, where even energy is going as it red shifts.

    The real problem with translation, is I am thinking in terms of an absolute while physics is content with relative.
  • FLUX23
    No, ground state in physics is not a relative term based on the ambient conditions.
  • Caldwell
    This cannot be time=0wellwisher

    Please define this.
  • wellwisher

    For example, most materials in nature are both temperature and pressure dependent. This data is plotted in what is called a phase diagram, which shows transitions in physical properties of materials as a function of temperature and pressure. Water, for example, at the assumed conditions of the earth's core; 5400 C and 3.5 million atmospheres of pressure, would be a solid metal phase. This phase has it own ground state, even though it is still water.

    What is assumed, in physics, to be the building blocks of matter, is formed in particle accelerators. These use extreme temperature or energy, but very low earth surface pressures. These particles are a phase, on a much larger phase diagram, even though it is assumed to be the ground state of matter. Int is a low pressure isobar phase. If we added a billion atmosphere of pressure, we would have different particles phases. But in all cases, the speed of light and C-level is the same place, for all elevations, on all phase diagrams, for all materials.

    If you assume the C-level is the ground state, then all inertial, matter and energy have potential relative to this ground state. The primordial atom of the BB, before expansion, had a potential with C-level, even though we call this t=0. It has potential due to energy and inertial content. The potential means this is not the beginning, but in the middle.

    The analogy is a water fountain with all the water in the pool below; stillness. This is C-level. The primordial atom is water that has been pumped to the top of the fountain. We currently call the top iff the fountain t=0, since we have the tradition of doing this up-side-down. This is due to measuring with matter at inertial conditions.

    But in reality, the still pool, before we start the pump is the true t=0. The clock is ticking when we start the pump; primordial atom is assembling; water works its way to the top, and when it starts to cascade downward, back to the pool; expansion, and ends as a still and quiet pool. C-level forces you to go back further which opens new possibilities.

    For example, space-time is like a woven fabric in the sense space and time are intertwined to act as one thing. If we unraveled the fabric of space-time, into separate threads of space and time, we have a different set of in conditions in space and time. Say we pressed separated time and space threads together, but not woven. This type of cloth is more fragile and is sort of like a amorphous fabric of space-time, that has unique unwoven properties. We are using time; threads, but not in the limited sense of time within space-time. Time is in play, earlier than space-time, which then becomes a new phase of space and time at the more extreme potential conditions.
  • Arne
    is that a yes or a no?
  • apokrisis
    There is a reasonable thought in your OP. At the Heat Death, there will only be a sizzle of photons with a temperature of the empty vacuum and wavelengths redshifted to the size of the visible universe. So that would be the ground state towards which everything tends. Just a generalised bath of radiation of zero degrees but moving at c, being in nothing but a vacuum.

    Also the speed of light is the speed of gravity. The idea is more general.
  • wellwisher

    There are many paths back to C-level, with the zero energy at absolute zero one of these paths. Absolute zero makes energy singular at infinite wavelength. However, this path does not preclude matter from still being around. Inertial reference and matter can still exist at absolute zero. Matter will still need to find a different path than energy, back to C-level, which is done by gravity and the other forces. These will occur simultaneously; all roads lead to Rome.

    Light speed being the speed of gravity can be understood as being connected to the speed of light being the same in all references, however not all gravity induced references are the same.

    If you were a neutron star; hypothetically, your space-time reference perception would appear contracted, compared to the earth. Therefore, things in the universe would appear closer to you.This means the speed of light, in your reference, would appear to be able to reach further for any unit of clock time in your reference. Constant speed and contracted distance means the gravity waves can influence the universe, further

    The gravity of our earth reference does not reach as far per unit of our reference time, compared to the neutron star. The result is the universe shows super structure or large scale order due to black holes, neuron star and other dense things. There is also local differences due to dust clouds , stars and planets and other smaller mass things. But in all cases, gravity is heading everything back to C-level at all scales.

    Through gravitational pressure, gravity gets the other three forces into play so matter can head to C-level, by giving off energy, which then red shifts back toward it's paths toward C-level. This red shift can occur due to motion, changes of reference, absorption into entropy and by cooling. All these paths work,with some better for activation energy, for other paths back to C-level.
  • Caldwell
    But in reality, the still pool, before we start the pump is the true t=0.wellwisher

    How do we even detect it if it's not at the level of potential? In your analogy of still pool, is that even possible to detect?
  • wellwisher
    How do we even detect it if it's not at the level of potential? In your analogy of still pool, is that even possible to detect?Caldwell

    Let me show this in a different way. Say we lived on a large plateau as show below.


    The plateau is large and it is taboo to go to beyond the rocky ledges that define the edge. Since we live on the plateau ,and it is easier for our science measurements, if we assume the lake in the middle of the plateau is the zero state. This is reasonable since all rain water ends there.

    We are not aware, that the lake has an elevation potential relative to the valley below. This is a potential for the movement of the water. One day we notice that the lake is draining and we can't figure out why, since this lake appears to be the ground state, where all the water goes. To maintain that plateau centric POV, we will need to speculate about the existence of alternate dimensions or white holes that teleport the water to other places. This is not real, but it is needed, since we assume a ground state that is not the real ground state. The still pool can only exist in the valley below; C-level. It is inferred by the lack of need to get complicated.
  • tim wood
    Speed-of-light is simply one aspect of the elephant. If you want to consider the thing as a whole, then it would be as velocity in spacetime. I am under the impression that velocity in spacetime is constant; i.e.,, your velocity is partly through space, partly through time. Invariant when those are combined.
  • Caldwell
    To maintain that plateau centric POV, we will need to speculate about the existence of alternate dimensions or white holes that teleport the water to other places.wellwisher

  • wellwisher
    Speed-of-light is simply one aspect of the elephant. If you want to consider the thing as a whole, then it would be as velocity in spacetime. I am under the impression that velocity in spacetime is constant; i.e.,, your velocity is partly through space, partly through time. Invariant when those are combined.tim wood

    The problem with velocity and relative velocity is it does not allow everyone to do the same universal energy balance. If you had two references in relative motion V, one with mass M and the other has mass 2M,if each same the other is moving, each will see the other with a different kinetic energy due to the differences in mass. This creates the plateau problem for each relative reference, where the true universal energy is not known. This is why they say there is no preferred reference, which means there can be no standardized universal energy balance. Therefore the conservation of energy becomes a relative concept and a moot point.

    If you use the C reference as the standard, since this is the same in all references, each reference can determine its true energy, since it is not depending on a relative affect, but on an absolute affect that is common to all.

    The C reference is similar to the valley below the plateau. This valley is common to all the reference plateaus. If they all use that as the zero point or ground state, most of the data anomalies and speculative theory to compensate is not needed, since the mystery is solved.

    The question is how do you visualize a C ground state so it is practical to use for mathematical translation?
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